Raymond RahmeKK vs Jerry YangA5

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fleft

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One of my first posts on these boards...here goes.

While watching the wsop ME final table, I was disappointed with the play of many of the players. One hand that was particularly strange was Rahme's pocket Kings versus Yang's A5. The hand can be seen 1:00 into this video: World Series of Poker 2007 Final Table Ep02 4/4 - pokertube.com

Yang(big stack) raises 4xBB with A5, Rahme(in the big blind) makes a small re-raise and Yang calls. Flop comes AJ8. This is where I started to wonder what Rahme was thinking. He was first to act, and checked. Then Yang bets three fifths the pot, and then Rahme quickly moves all-in, giving Yang decent pot odds to call (17m to call, pot is currently 55m).

I think Rahme should have played this very differently post flop. Although I only play low levels online, one of the things I have read often on this site and others is to define your hand to gain as much information as possible about your opponent's hand. Instead, he checked, the somewhat aggressive Yang bet a very predictable amount, and Rahme had no idea where he was in the hand.

Instead, I propose Rahme should have bet roughly the pot. He was the pre flop aggressor and Yang has no reason to think he has the best hand at this point. Furthermore, if Yang does re-raise, Rahme can easily lay down his Kings knowing he is way behind.

I know hindsight is 20/20 but me and my roommate got into a discussion about this hand was wondering if anyone else agreed with me. Thanks for any input.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

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Way things were going, Yang was going to call almost any raise pre-flop no matter what. Remember for awhile there, he was doubling up the russian player if I recalled 3 straight hands. His play at times was ultra hyper aggresive wich almost cost him a few times.
 
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maltz

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People say Rahme shouldn't have bluffed Yang knowing he is always calling thinking he is the chosen one... but the TV only shows you the more dramatic hands.

It is hard to play KK when an Ace falls on the flop. If you bet the pot Yang might just flat call. Is Rahme going to cbet? If you check the turn Yang will sense weakness (he says his sense is pretty good in the interview) and push you out of the pot.

I would just say Rahme is unlucky here.
 
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Bentheman87

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I didn't see the video, but from what I've read from you guys, if I were Raymer, I would have reraised a lot bigger preflop. With AA, perhaps a smaller raise if fine, but with kings, theres a 33% (i think that is correct, not positive) that an ace will come on the flop, turn, or river. So if Yang had any ace, he wouldn't be that big of a dog against KK. I would have put in about 2.5-3x the amount Yang bet. When the ace came on the flop, I would have bet about 1/2 the pot. If he called or raised, I would know I was beat and cut my losses there. Checking with the Kings is a bad move since, like someone already said, it leaves you with no idea where your kings stand.
 
vanquish

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Everyone besides Kravchenko and Watkinson sucked.
 
smokinbandito12

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it was pretty disapointing considering that the final table of the main event should be made up of a handful of the top players in the world
 
OzExorcist

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it was pretty disapointing considering that the final table of the main event should be made up of a handful of the top players in the world

Once upon a time, maybe. These days, it's mostly the players who won the most coinflips on the earlier days.
 
IamBP

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That's why H.O.R.S.E. is the real main event.
 
pantin007

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Everyone besides Kravchenko and Watkinson sucked.
correction they all sucked. Jeryy Jang could some serious cards tho and no matter what rahme did post flop he was always going to call the all in remember hhe is not that good of a player and an ace to him is good enought to call with
 
vanquish

vanquish

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correction they all sucked. Jeryy Jang could some serious cards tho and no matter what rahme did post flop he was always going to call the all in remember hhe is not that good of a player and an ace to him is good enought to call with

Correction Kravchenko played very well.
 
smd173

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fleft,
I agree with you. But while were in armchair QB mode, consider this...that hand took place at like 11 PM Pacific, or about 11 hours into the final table. I think it's easy for us to underestimate how tired these guys were. Especially Rahme being 62.

If you need a real good example of someone who really knows what they are doing but still blew up anyway look at Scotty Nguyen who finished 11th. He never should have finished 11th. Yet he did because of stupid mistakes.
 
petey5o

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that stage in the game he should have raised all in pre ...if yang wants to make a bad call let him...if he dont call, which he probly wouldnt...he would probly lose a lot of his aggression...rahme would have never been out and he wouldnt have been able to push around like he had been doing any longer
 
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fleft

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I agree. He should have been much more aggressive pre-flop with his kings. Maltz also makes a good point that if Rahme bets the pot, Yang could simply call, which would put Rahme in a bad spot. All-in-all a tough hand to play, and also unlucky for Rahme. Thanks for the input guys.

Also, as an aside, does anyone know how long the heads up play lasted? ESPN's coverage only showed one hand. Given the relative stack sizes it is possible this was one of the first hands of heads up play, but I still would have liked to see more.
 
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evansgambit

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Slowplay the KK

I think Raymond Rahme just got tired and reckless here.

He had KK - the monster, and had alot of great options.

a) To move in preflop - which is the weakest move I believe. Given with KK - since you only fear an Ace on the flop, which happens 18% of the time, and 2% of the time when Jerry flops 2 pairs, or 12% of the time if Jerry has a pocket pair and flops a set. So at best Jerry is 18% to the flop. Pushing over the top of Jerry may not be good, as he may not have a big enough hand to call. Yet, he's shown to call ALL IN preflop with less. The problem if he sees a flop, is Jerry might dump. But Jerry holding an ace, puts you 30% at risk to the river, but only 18% at risk to the flop. Is Jerry the kind of guy, who will CALL ALL IN preflop with A5?

b) Re-raising preflop is a good option, and because Jerry raised preflop (you have to consider that there is also a possibility me may have an ace). Its the classic Raise, re-raise and then Ace flops, situation. Happened against Lee Childs, happened here. Knowing that Jerry can't fold most hands. Raymond's play looked out of place, a scared play, then a real monster. Plus, he opened his trap:

Jerry: Do you think I should call?
Raymond: No (tell! looking nervous and weak), you should play your hand.

Against a player like Yang, you should put the Check-Push all in with a Strong Ace. And if your not willing to fold KK after the flop, you should Move In preflop. But this is the safest way to play the KK hand.

Jerry should have re-checked the flop, and proceeded to the Turn. But he's not a thinking player. I wonder what Rayme would have done in this case?

If no ace flops, you could slowplay it here, make Jerry put you on AK, and hopefully tries to bluff you out. From the ESPN shows, he bets under the pot for bluffs, you knows what happens in the the live one.

c) Smooth call preflop and keep Yang - the agressor in the lead. Hide the strength of his hand. See if an ace flops or not. Then keep calling Yang, and choose when you want to pull the trigger - or let Yang try to bluff you off the hand. With a hand like KK, if Yang hits 2 pairs+ and no ace on board, you probably have to pay him. From what I watched on ESPN, it seems that if Yang raised preflop, he almost always follows on subsequent streets.
 
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OzExorcist

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that stage in the game he should have raised all in pre ...if yang wants to make a bad call let him...

While there's something to be said for this strategy, I dunno if I agree in this case.

From the hands that got shown on TV, it was pretty clear that Yang was weak post-flop. He was calling pre-flop with marginal hands, and then throwing millions away on bluffs on the rest of the hand. If the flop didn't have an ace on it, all Rahme needed to do was let Yang keep betting into him and call him down.

I don't mind the check-raise all in from Rahme, for every time that Yang's holding an ace and has him beat, there's another dozen hands where he's holding KQ or JT or some other rubbish like that and Rahme has him on toast.

I think the only mistake Rahme made was opening his mouth while Yang was still making up his mind - it seemed like Yang was looking for a reason to call, and Rahme saying "It's your decision" ended up being it. Sure, the way things were going he was probably calling with top pair anyway, but Rahme didn't need to give him that extra incentive.
 
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