Phil Gordon makes a bad call during the MiniFTOPS #1?

[dj11]

Nice thread. There is something about this hand that sort of defines the differences between ring and tourney play. Though I am not sure just what it is. Having something to do with my general (tourney) survival vs hard math prejudice perhaps?

Would he make the call in a ring game? The math is the same (I assume).

Without reads, which only Phil could provide, I for one would not make that call, even if his ten were the Kx suited. Now had he acted first....whole different story....

 

[Trimming1]

I fold in this spot.

The hand Phil call with is one I have always folded as It is a lower percentage hand. I don`t care that It`s suited as that edge is only what..3% more to the flop to help you. I hate coin flips as it is and certainly would have picked a better spot/cards to make a call of that kind.I THINK HIS DECISION WAS FAULTY.

 

[dmorris68]

Terrible call just fold and wait for a better spot imo, I don't agree with the whole odds mathmatical formula and how people follow suit with it, i mean if thats the case even if he called 2-7os here it wouldn't be bad here either cause oh they're live cards.

stupid.

If this is your thought process, I'd respectfully suggest you actually learn a bit more about the math involved and how it applies to poker. I'm not suggesting that math is all that matters -- far from it -- but in absence of other specific info to the contrary on a given hand, the math is the ONLY thing that is consistent and will never let you down over the long run.

And suggesting that 72o has the same equity as T4s demonstrates a lack of understanding of equity, as well. Against A5s, T4s is about a 37/62 dog, versus 72o being a 32/67 dog. But more to your attempted point, T4s is a 2:1 favorite over 72o, so I'm not sure where you get your alleged equities from.

 

[Eclipsenz]

I wouldn't wanna risk a third of my stack on 10-4, .. 10-9? 10-8? 10-7 at the very widest? yeah sure perhaps but 10-4.? I'd rather put my chips in to where I have more possibilites to knock someone out rather than just relying on to hit my 10 or some miracle flush flop.

There are times I'd call 10-4 but not in that spot theres no need to imo.

 

[dmorris68]

I wouldn't wanna risk a third of my stack on 10-4, .. 10-9? 10-8? 10-7 at the very widest? yeah sure perhaps but 10-4.? I'd rather put my chips in to where I have more possibilites to knock someone out rather than just relying on to hit my 10 or some miracle flush flop.

There are times I'd call 10-4 but not in that spot theres no need to imo.

Well again, there are a lot of considerations going into a decision like that, and nobody here is saying it's a standard call, ship it, woo woo woo. We're just saying under the circumstances this doesn't look like such a terrible call.

Plus, the fact that Phil Gordon did it, and Leatherass just posted here to confirm it's not a terrible call, further validates the opinion. IMO.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

Well again, there are a lot of considerations going into a decision like that, and nobody here is saying it's a standard call, ship it, woo woo woo. We're just saying under the circumstances this doesn't look like such a terrible call.

Plus, the fact that Phil Gordon did it, and Leatherass just posted here to confirm it's not a terrible call, further validates the opinion. IMO.

+1

Not a good or a bad call...

 

[Suited Frenzy]

I'm a nit, so I def wouldn't make that call even for 1/10 of my stack much less almost 1/3 of it.

 

[Four Dogs]

I make the call for 5bb's + overlay

 

[cjatud2012]

while it's true that this is not an awful call in the long run, I would also warn people not to over-adjust because of this spot. That is, just because we happened in this one situation to have about 35% equity in this spot when the cards were face up and the cEV ended up working out to a marginally +EV call, that doesn't mean we should go nuts every time we get 52s and make the call when a player shoves from early position. zerosum79 said something in one of his videos on SNG's which applies equally well here, which is that often times players, both good and bad, will see something on a forum or in a discussion and take that advice and apply it to the wrong situations. I think this could potentially be one of those situations for this forum, so again, I just want to urge people to not over-adjust and start calling super wide for 1/3 of their stack, even if a pro made the move and another pro suggested the move is okay.

 

[cardplayer52]

Let's not forget the extra walks he may get if T4s takes down the pot. So yes this is pretty much neutral EV as far as equity but might even have a more value when he's n the blinds again.

 

[Weregoat]

Would he make the call in a ring game? The math is the same (I assume).

Phil would be a lot less likely to find himself in this position in a ring game.

First off, the SPR would be way off. Phil has 15 BBs, villain has 5 BBs?

If I were at a table that didn't allow rebuys with chips at the table, I'd be jamming every hand to try to get knocked out to rebuy with a full stack.

Secondly, Phil wouldn't have a reason to call in a ring game, even if those were the stacks.

While his stack is negligible, so is his. If he were deeper stacked and wanted villain to rebuy with a full stack to get some more money on the table or open up a seat, maybe.

Sometimes when I'm super deep stacked at ring games I make some questionable calls (and it's a leak of mine that I'm well aware of), but I highly doubt Phil stacks off with T4s in a ring game save as a bluff.

And the one thing I hate about all-in opponents is you can't bluff them.

Granted we don't have Phil's reads, I'm guessing his reasoning went something like this. Remember, this is purely speculation and has no basis on fact.

1. This guy has been shoving a lot. His range is really wide. While I'm most certainly not ahead, I'm probably live. The amount of times I'm drawing slim to this guy's range doesn't justify me folding here, when I could hit and take the lead.

2. I'm Phil Gordon. I have poker books, a successful poker career, and I know Mick Foley. I don't care if I lose this measly MTT.

3. I'm Phil Gordon. I love winning at poker, and winning this pot will put me in a better position to do so. While losing this pot won't cripple me, I'll just have to start shove/folding, and hoping I'm good.

4. "Well, against hands like Axs, Kxs, Qxs and Jxs, the math is close enough. And I close the action."

I'm not saying I'd call, as a matter of fact I'd probably fold and wait for a better spot.

But he's the one with the successful career, not me.

 

[dmorris68]

while it's true that this is not an awful call in the long run, I would also warn people not to over-adjust because of this spot. That is, just because we happened in this one situation to have about 35% equity in this spot when the cards were face up and the cEV ended up working out to a marginally +EV call, that doesn't mean we should go nuts every time we get 52s and make the call when a player shoves from early position. zerosum79 said something in one of his videos on SNG's which applies equally well here, which is that often times players, both good and bad, will see something on a forum or in a discussion and take that advice and apply it to the wrong situations. I think this could potentially be one of those situations for this forum, so again, I just want to urge people to not over-adjust and start calling super wide for 1/3 of their stack, even if a pro made the move and another pro suggested the move is okay.

+solid

Good advice, cj.

 

[postflopper]

nobody should call here, especially when they are equally as short-stacked as phil g is in this case. save the chips and wait for a better spot to shove.

 

[atlantafalcons0]

nobody should call here, especially when they are equally as short-stacked as phil g is in this case. save the chips and wait for a better spot to shove.

Equally as short-stacked???

LOL

Phil's only risking 1/3 of his chips.

 

[billyth3kid]

theres way too many hands that have him dominated... but at the same time he probably gets pushed around a lot because hes a pro so prob trying to stand his ground and show the table he cant be bullied... plus he wasnt making a decision for all of his chips

 

[Tom1559]

It was a bad call without question.

 

[Poker Orifice]

He's getting 1.78 to1 - not a bad call imo.

How can folks suggest that this is a 'terrible call'?

Even if we put Villain on as tight of a range as Top25%, HERO needs ~36%eq here (w 1.78 to1 ), T4s actually has close to 35% eq vs. Top25% range... so from a cEV standpoint it is close... real close.(and this is with giving villain top 25% for their range would/could obviously be too tight of an estimate)

 

[only_bridge]

Im no fan of Phil Gordon, but I dont see how this qualifys as a bad call.

 

[Misteral]

It's weird. At first glance you'd think that calling here with 10 4s to that all in was a bit mental. But it seems to me that a call here is no worse/better than a fold. You can still work with 10BB and even more so with 21BB. 14BB ain't much better than 10BB to be honest. I'd have probably folded but now that I've read this thread and thought about it I think I'd likely call now.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Phil would be a lot less likely to find himself in this position in a ring game.

First off, the SPR would be way off. Phil has 15 BBs, villain has 5 BBs?

If I were at a table that didn't allow rebuys with chips at the table, I'd be jamming every hand to try to get knocked out to rebuy with a full stack.

Secondly, Phil wouldn't have a reason to call in a ring game, even if those were the stacks.

While his stack is negligible, so is his. If he were deeper stacked and wanted villain to rebuy with a full stack to get some more money on the table or open up a seat, maybe.

Sometimes when I'm super deep stacked at ring games I make some questionable calls (and it's a leak of mine that I'm well aware of), but I highly doubt Phil stacks off with T4s in a ring game save as a bluff.

And the one thing I hate about all-in opponents is you can't bluff them.

Granted we don't have Phil's reads, I'm guessing his reasoning went something like this. Remember, this is purely speculation and has no basis on fact.

1. This guy has been shoving a lot. His range is really wide. While I'm most certainly not ahead, I'm probably live. The amount of times I'm drawing slim to this guy's range doesn't justify me folding here, when I could hit and take the lead.

2. I'm Phil Gordon. I have poker books, a successful poker career, and I know Mick Foley. I don't care if I lose this measly MTT.

3. I'm Phil Gordon. I love winning at poker, and winning this pot will put me in a better position to do so. While losing this pot won't cripple me, I'll just have to start shove/folding, and hoping I'm good.

4. "Well, against hands like Axs, Kxs, Qxs and Jxs, the math is close enough. And I close the action."

I'm not saying I'd call, as a matter of fact I'd probably fold and wait for a better spot.

But he's the one with the successful career, not me.

Curious.. how is any of this ^ relevant? (comparing this spot to a ring game makes no sense at all to me).
Also, how or why would we assume that the SS has been shoving often? (I'd assume the opposite by looking at this HH.. but maybe also a poor conclusion by me... I mean the guy has 5bb's... if he'd even shipped once in last orbit he'd have more than this)... SOoooo.... 1.) is way out there imo.
2.) again... I doubt he plays to lose (I know of many higher buyin MTT players who'll treat a $5 buyin the same as a $500.. as far as playing to win goes)
3.) he needs to be shoving/folding with the stack he has here prior to this hand.. he 'might' have FE on a shove over an LP raise with his current stack.. but I doubt it.. any decent player shoving with resteal stacks on their left shouldn't be opening so wide that they wouldn't be calling off to a 20bb resteal shove. Will the call negatively impact his stack... a bit.. but not alot. Will winning the pot increase his chances... yes.. as he'll actually have a stack he might be able to resteal with & openshoves may actually pick up the blinds
4.) Doubt he's putting villain on this specific of hands... more likely a range of hands villain'd be shoving here with (imo).

Just my thoughts... regarding 'your' thoughts... that is.. 'your thoughts if you were Phil G.'.. lol

 

[Weregoat]

Curious.. how is any of this ^ relevant? (comparing this spot to a ring game makes no sense at all to me).
Also, how or why would we assume that the SS has been shoving often? (I'd assume the opposite by looking at this HH.. but maybe also a poor conclusion by me... I mean the guy has 5bb's... if he'd even shipped once in last orbit he'd have more than this)... SOoooo.... 1.) is way out there imo.
2.) again... I doubt he plays to lose (I know of many higher buyin MTT players who'll treat a $5 buyin the same as a $500.. as far as playing to win goes)
3.) he needs to be shoving/folding with the stack he has here prior to this hand.. he 'might' have FE on a shove over an LP raise with his current stack.. but I doubt it.. any decent player shoving with resteal stacks on their left shouldn't be opening so wide that they wouldn't be calling off to a 20bb resteal shove. Will the call negatively impact his stack... a bit.. but not alot. Will winning the pot increase his chances... yes.. as he'll actually have a stack he might be able to resteal with & openshoves may actually pick up the blinds
4.) Doubt he's putting villain on this specific of hands... more likely a range of hands villain'd be shoving here with (imo).

Just my thoughts... regarding 'your' thoughts... that is.. 'your thoughts if you were Phil G.'.. lol

LOL. I <3 Poker Orifice.

Once again I am humbled by your knowledge and more experience in this lane of poker.

Truth be told, I can't read a thread that interests me without trying to sound like an expert and typing at least a million words.

I guess in the spirit of doing so, I could take a look at your analysis of my analysis.

1.) is way out there imo.
Well he's got 5 BBs. Either he got low and started shoving, or he's been getting dealt garbage after garbage and the blinds have been eating away at him. Either way, he doesn't have a terribly strong range in this spot, and in the spots he does have a monster hand, it's not that terrible considering his stack doesn't crush phil's.

Phil is leaps and bounds and a short car-ride beyond where I HOPE to be skill wise, let alone where I am. The fact that Dusty approved on such a call and it would be a *fold 90+% of the time* for me, and Phil actually made the call means I can learn a bit from it - not saying call jams for a third my stack with T4s every time, but if his call was based on the assumption that one pair would improve him to the best hand, he was correct. And I don't see an error here, provided that is the reason he made the call.

2.) again... I doubt he plays to lose (I know of many higher buyin MTT players who'll treat a $5 buyin the same as a $500.. as far as playing to win goes)
True. While money is money and poker is poker, I don't think Phil was just 'playing around with the chips', but the difference between winning this tournament and losing it is marginal in the long run for him, so while it could have been Phil saying "against his range, I've got pot odds" or "I could even be ahead here" or "I'll show them to quit trying to steal my blinds!" or whatever was going through his head, it could have very well been a "meh. I want a beer and to increase my chipstack. I'll call and go get a beer as the hand plays out." Or maybe even a tuna sandwich. Only Phil knows.

3.) he needs to be shoving/folding with the stack he has here prior to this hand.. he 'might' have FE on a shove over an LP raise with his current stack.. but I doubt it.. any decent player shoving with resteal stacks on their left shouldn't be opening so wide that they wouldn't be calling off to a 20bb resteal shove. Will the call negatively impact his stack... a bit.. but not alot. Will winning the pot increase his chances... yes.. as he'll actually have a stack he might be able to resteal with & openshoves may actually pick up the blinds

I actually forgot what this was in response to and my laziness prevents me from checking so I may make a counter argument. So for the sake of preserving my laziness, I agree with you.

4.) Doubt he's putting villain on this specific of hands... more likely a range of hands villain'd be shoving here with (imo).

Yes. And a lot of the hands he is shoving with fall into Phil's range of being live against, justifying the call.

Just my thoughts... regarding 'your' thoughts... that is.. 'your thoughts if you were Phil G.'.. lol


Always love to interact with ya PO, but I lost my train of thought when my friend (who looks like Beeker from the Muppets) came in to ask me about Dragon Age. So there.

 

[SlySwagga]

To me despite all the math it was a horrible call. But then again im a rookie what do i know.

 

[bonflizubi]

its a fine call.

with 5 BB and about to go into the blinds the villains range is almost anything here so phils hand has better equity than you think. you cant just plug in teh exact hand into pokerstove. he probably has more like 38-40% equity here I'd guess. And once you do the math- the math can't be wrong, especially on a shortstack and not near a final table.

He calls he wins he has 20bb and a very workable stack. If he loses, he's about to go through the blinds and have a great shoving spot for his 10bb.

Sometimes you need to chip up or go home. Bunch of wusses here

I also bet that noone makes this play i saw midway through miniftop 1:

was watching subiime, who is now red pro Joeseph Cheong, aka 3rd in chips going into the november 9.

EP raises on a 65 or 70bb stack, gets re-raised by the button and he jams for 50bb effective (that's what the other guy had). other guy tank calls with AQss

What's he have? 55. 55 holds over AQss. He made a read that it was likely not a pair and also knew he had MASSIVE fold equity. I was actually shocked that he got called by AQss there. But that gave him a massive stack and he worked it up into around the top 27 of that event.

Pros do make some odd or spewy plays or calls... but I like phils call there.

 

[trewtrew]

both short stacked but shovers is very short stacked and his range is very wide and T4s id likely to be two live cards. I think this is a situation where a call is fine and a fold is fine.

 

[Rldetheflop]

He's getting 1.78 to1 - not a bad call imo.

How can folks suggest that this is a 'terrible call'?

Even if we put Villain on as tight of a range as Top25%, HERO needs ~36%eq here (w 1.78 to1 ), T4s actually has close to 35% eq vs. Top25% range... so from a cEV standpoint it is close... real close.(and this is with giving villain top 25% for their range would/could obviously be too tight of an estimate)

Actually against 25 percent range 10 4s has less than 34%, against 35 percent range its still under 35% equity. it doesnt climb above the 36% mark until opponents range is around 45 percent.

again I know this is my thread but I never said horrible call and the phrase bad call in the title is a question. I still fold this but clearly a call is ok and a fold is ok the decision is EV neutral.