Online Poker is Legitimate!

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narizblanco

narizblanco

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I don't disagree with your analysis, BUT I don't think the hands on FULLTILT are truly random. I have played over 800K hands over last 3 years about a third of them on FULLTILT. I believe their program's are skewed in favor of the weaker hand in allin confrontations. I believe the weaker hands suckout far more than they should mathematically. I believe they do this to encourage poor players to continue to deposit and boost their revenue by having more players.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I believe the weaker hands suckout far more than they should mathematically. I believe they do this to encourage poor players to continue

Big LOL at that. Good players usually semi-bluff much more than bad ones, so they often get it in with the worst hand when villains call them, so your theory would actually favor good players over poor ones...

Read Brunson's super-system. He explains how his fishy opponents always thought him a lucky guy just because they did not understand the concepts of implied odds and semi-bluffs.
 
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Wow Mase, you really know how to do your homework. I agree you have a very valid point, and if it were me I wouldn't take the risk either. Why would a legitimate gaming machine company risk it's license by distributing "questionably" programmed machines? But the issue comes up far more often than you would think.

The short answer is greed, and the people who set up these sites are bigger risk takers than most poker players are. Pretty ironic huh.

Nothing would surprise me.
 
dd_decker

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There is always the possibility of cheating - such as collusion between players, so in that respect it may not be as fair as live poker.
 
Crystal Blue

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Ok Mase, you have put forward a decent post offering good reason why a poker site such as FTP would be crazy to incorporate some kind of rig into its game. You have displayed ( in your own opinion ) why the risk might just not be worth it.

So what I will do here is use your own figures to highlight some "possible" attractions for a rig to take place. Keep in mind the purpose of this exercise is purely to show that a rig "might" become attractive to those who might consider using it.

*Also, to keep things simple, I will be working from a steady amount of traffic throughout the 24 hour day.
My reasoning for this is that we are using figures for an average Tuesday, and knowing traffic increases at weekends etc, hopefully it balances itself out somewhat.

From your own figures we have the following.............

$10NL cash
$25NL cash
640 tables
10% rig

Average legit rake per hand = $0.1495
Rake of rigged hand = $1.9735
Net profit from a rigged hand = $1.824
1 hand per table being rigged every 90 minutes ( 1 per hour and a half )

Ok, now I am going to use those figures to show that an attraction is out there even for the likes of FTP.

Over a 24 hour* period we would have 16 rigged hands per table with a net profit of $29.18 per table. We have 640 tables so over a 24 hour period we are netting $18,675.20.
Likewise, over a monthly ( 30.41 days average ) period we now have $567,912.83 net rig, and over 1 calendar year that becomes $6,814,953.90

So only including $10NL & $25NL cash games at 10% overall rig ( or 1 rigged hand per table every 90 minutes at these 2 levels ) Mr moneybags at FTP might be finding that his eyes are starting to bulge looking at a figure of nearly $7M.
He hasn't even started to do the sums for ALL the cash game limits yet because he is having difficulty adjusting his eyes and he knows the final figure is going to be HUGE.

Back on track..............
Even if the rig percentage was dropped to 1% thus making it much more like a needle in a hay stack to detect we are still looking at $700k per year just for those 2 levels.
1% rig would make it less than 2 rigged hands per table over a 24 hour period. Now we can start to see the attraction of the gain, and the vastly lowered risk of detection.

Then we have something else to consider which you didn't have in your post, a very important ingredient ........... COSTS
FTP's hourly rate of profit by reading what goes on at the tables doesn't come close to giving us the true bottom line even if we do only use 2 levels ( $10NL & $25NL ) to work from.

One thing about a 10% or 1% or whatever rig, is that it wouldn't be effected by the overall running costs of the company because it's already fixed in and it's a secret ;)

When the yearly true net profit of the company is known after all costs etc are taken out, and then adding up all cash games potential of say 1% - 10% rig, an attraction most certainly exists.

I guess a lot of the time it's going to be about which option outweighs the other in the eyes of the people with the button, and the same thing can be said for members opinions on whether it's worth it or not.

Mase, both your post and this post prove nothing, but they do both display reasons for and against riggaments.
 
Stu_Ungar

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My advise is this.

If you think online poker is rigged, you should immediately stop playing it.

This advise can be applied to other things in life too.

If you think a boat is about to sink, you shouldn't get on it.

If you think a building is about to fall down, you shouldn't go in it.

No need to thank me for this little nugget.. I'm here to help :D
 
Nickmond

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It's not rigged, it just sometimes seems that way in the middle of a run of bad beats
 
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zzzaacckk

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Three words to settle it...

Random Card Generator

That is what the sites use, isn't it?

its a random number generator that is independently audited by external companies. Each site presumably uses a different algorithm.
 
brianvoytek

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Good post, but honestly...WAYYYYYYYYY to much time on your hands. Just play poker. People are thinking way too much about something they can't control.
 
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You must admit, though. Accusations of rigging make life much more entertaining . . .

PokerJoker makes dumb call . . .
PokerJoker loses his stack . . .
PokerJoker is heard to remark, "This site is rigged!"
Peterr211 falls out of his chair laughing.
 
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032483

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Dissertation indeed lol...Great job on the post though. I have to agree with your major point that it would be foolish to fudge the algorithms being used to make a little extra cash when they're already pulling in tons of money for providing digital felt.
 
GDRileyx

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OK, have you guys ever had to keep a secret? Well don't ever tell me a secret, coz I can't hold my own water. I mean, I'll tell someone at some stage.

Now, if you were a computer programmer/employee or whatever and have designed a RNG. Don't you think by now human nature would have kicked in and we would have heard, with categoric evidence, how poker sites are rigged.

Ever hear of a Non-disclosure Agreement? If you sign one of those, and then disclose, you'll never have another dime in your pocket as long as you live.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Ever hear of a Non-disclosure Agreement? If you sign one of those, and then disclose, you'll never have another dime in your pocket as long as you live.

Its a pity no-one mentioned that to Nixon :D
 
GDRileyx

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My advise is this.

If you think online poker is rigged, you should immediately stop playing it.
:D

Nobody is saying that online poker is rigged against the player. Those of us who think it's rigged think it's rigged for the rake. The money is still there to be made, so the alleged rigging is not a reason to stop playing.

Those of us who think it's rigged to increase the rake still make money. We just think we make less money than we would if the sites were more honest.
 
GDRileyx

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Dissertation indeed lol...Great job on the post though. I have to agree with your major point that it would be foolish to fudge the algorithms being used to make a little extra cash when they're already pulling in tons of money for providing digital felt.

You probably think carnival games are on the square too.

Why do gazillionaire celebrities do commercial voiceovers to make a little extra cash? Why does Magic Johnson do commercials for that tax preparer to make a little extra cash? Why do pro-golfers were endorsement caps to make a little extra cash?

Why do Federal and State Governments tax unemployment benefits to make a little extra cash? Why do banks charge service charges to make a little extra cash? Why do movie theaters overcharge for popcorn to make a little extra cash?

Online poker is a money-cow. And when you have a money-cow, you milk it for every drop.

The best example is newspapers. Newspapers used to make a decent profit, but the stockholders wanted to milk the papers for every nickle, so they cut staff, cut reporting, cut quality - in the pursuit of a little extra cash, even to the long term detriment of newspapers, whose business is now in the crapper.

It's a story as old as Aesop's fables. The Goose That Laid the Golden Egg. Any child can see that it was stupid to kill the goose, rather than waiting patiently for the daily golden egg. But that's human nature.

Put simply, the Why Would They Risk It? Argument does not hold water.
 
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Stu_Ungar

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Nobody is saying that online poker is rigged against the player. Those of us who think it's rigged think it's rigged for the rake. The money is still there to be made, so the alleged rigging is not a reason to stop playing.

Those of us who think it's rigged to increase the rake still make money. We just think we make less money than we would if the sites were more honest.

Well if its all about rake.. and all sites are rigged so as to increase rake.. why not just increase the rake very very slightly on all hands?

This would generate far more income for the sites than these action flops.. and would also get rid of the risk of being caught.

Too logical???
 
A

AlexClassic

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This would generate far more income for the sites than these action flops.. and would also get rid of the risk of being caught.

Too logical???[/quote]


Logical)))
 
GDRileyx

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Well if its all about rake.. and all sites are rigged so as to increase rake.. why not just increase the rake very very slightly on all hands?

This would generate far more income for the sites than these action flops.. and would also get rid of the risk of being caught.

Too logical???

It's a market thing. The rake is as high as the market will bear. Raise the rake, lose business, make less revenues. Especially if the competitors have a lower rake.

Again to use the newspaper analogy, when newspapers are losing money, people say, "Raise the price." Then they sell less newspapers and raise less revenue. So what they do instead is make invisible cuts. They cut reporters, they cut coverage, and they hope nobody notices. Just like it is alleged that online sites rig some hands to raise the rake-revenue, and hope nobody notices.
 
Stu_Ungar

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It's a market thing. The rake is as high as the market will bear. Raise the rake, lose business, make less revenues. Especially if the competitors have a lower rake.

Again to use the newspaper analogy, when newspapers are losing money, people say, "Raise the price." Then they sell less newspapers and raise less revenue. So what they do instead is make invisible cuts. They cut reporters, they cut coverage, and they hope nobody notices. Just like it is alleged that online sites rig some hands to raise the rake-revenue, and hope nobody notices.

There simply isn't enough information here to make these statements. You fail to address the elasticity of demand for the product. By raising prices the volume of sales is expected to drop, however revenue may still increase.

Reducing the price should lead to higher volumes of sales but at the lower price revenue may well be down.

You may be correct but there simply isn't enough information given about the market to substantiate the statement.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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You probably think carnival games are on the square too.

Why do gazillionaire celebrities do commercial voiceovers to make a little extra cash? Why does Magic Johnson do commercials for that tax preparer to make a little extra cash? Why do pro-golfers were endorsement caps to make a little extra cash?

Why do Federal and State Governments tax unemployment benefits to make a little extra cash? Why do banks charge service charges to make a little extra cash? Why do movie theaters overcharge for popcorn to make a little extra cash?

Online poker is a money-cow. And when you have a money-cow, you milk it for every drop.

The best example is newspapers. Newspapers used to make a decent profit, but the stockholders wanted to milk the papers for every nickle, so they cut staff, cut reporting, cut quality - in the pursuit of a little extra cash, even to the long term detriment of newspapers, whose business is now in the crapper.

It's a story as old as Aesop's fables. The Goose That Laid the Golden Egg. Any child can see that it was stupid to kill the goose, rather than waiting patiently for the daily golden egg. But that's human nature.

Put simply, the Why Would They Risk It? Argument does not hold water.

Notice that in all of the examples given here, except possibly for the slaying of an innocent goose, the extra money was obtained by legal means.

Celebrates, golfers etc etc were not risking jail time for fraud!!
 
GDRileyx

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Celebrates, golfers etc etc were not risking jail time for fraud!!

Nor do I believe that anyone is risking jail time for fraud, if online poker is rigged. Who has jurisdiction? The Kahnawake tribe in canada can hardly prosecute individuals who they can't find or extradite. If there is a fraud, it is taking place on the servers on Kahnawake tribal land. Britain can't prosecute frauds taking place there, Canada can't, the US can't.

Remember, nobody got prosecuted for the UltimateBet cheating scandal. We know who did it, but they got away with it scot-free.

And I already used Tyco and Enron as examples of profitable corporations who broke the law to make more money in the other thread. How about the well-paid NBA referee who got caught rigging games. He risked jail for a little extra money. How about Michael Vick, millionaire quarterback who risked jail to make a little extra money dogfighting. How about Canseco and ARod and all the other steroid-using baseball players.

Power corrupts. In our society money is power. Money corrupts.
 
Stu_Ungar

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You really are clutching at straws here.

It won't be long before people are asking , once again, for you to provide evidence that what you are saying is being done.

Rather than simply rehashing your own beliefs, in the hope that they will be blindly accepted, why not obtain some evidence that substantiate your claims?

Maybe you really do have para-observational abilities and have spotted rigging in online poker, but I cannot help but notice my own bankroll increase each month and wonder why is it that it does not seem to have any effect on me.
 
GDRileyx

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C'mon Stu. Answer a couple direct questions. You asserted that people at online sites would be prosecutable for fraud, if there was rigging. Back it up with evidence. Who would have jurisdiction to prosecute? What statutes would apply?
 
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That is a great post. I have definitely found myself thinking that things were a little too fishy during certain days. Just the disbelief that the outcome would be the same way that it was over and over and over and over. Its also still one of the hottest debates in online poker (although its a bit tired now) and something like this really puts the reality in perspective. Nice job!
 
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