Not betting the nuts on the river

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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considering i may have played more then several thousand games against this individual had i continued maybe knowing for sure what was actually going on rather then guessing was worth, not taking extra chips i didnt really need.

If that's the case then it makes even less sense IMO - you've played several thousand games against this player. If you don't already have a good read on their play, then knowing the contents of a single hand is hardly going to change anything.

Plus if the person you're in the hand with is the best player at the table, and you're holding the nuts, it's pretty stupid to pass up an opportunity to take more chips from them.
 
IntenseHeat

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In the past I have argued not so much against the rule, but the notion that there was no other reason to check the nuts on the river other than collusion. I've pointed out that there have not only been times when I have checked with what I was sure was the best hand (not the nuts) in order to see what my opponent was playing with, but also times that I have paid off bets on the river in order to gain the same information. So to me, the concept of someone checking the nuts on the river in order to gain information on their opponent is not so far fetched.

Recently I played a hand, after which I had to wonder about this particular rule. I had raised 4x pre w/A-Q suited from the button with one limper in front of me. The blinds fold. The limper calls my raise and we see the flop heads up. The flop comes something like 2-9-10 with two clubs. The other guy bets half the pot. I call with the nut flush draw. An Ace hits on the turn, giving me top pair. My opponent checks, and I check behind, leaving him the opportunity to bluff at the river. I should probably mention that I had been cleaning my gun as I played. So I was a little distracted when the 8 of clubs landed on the river, but not so distracted that I didn't realize that I had rivered the nut flush. The other guy makes a half pot bet. I called, knowing that my nut flush was good. The other guy turns over 10-4 of clubs.

So I had taken down a decent pot and gone back to cleaning my gun when it hit me that I had probably left some money on the table. I was supposed to raise his river bet. Before seeing his hand, I should have recognized the possibility of him having an Ace, a straight, or a lesser flush that he would have likely paid me off with. After seeing his cards I further realize that he might have put me on just a pair of Aces, or a straight, and not only paid me off, but possibly have gone all-in over the top of me. And even if he folded, I wouldn't have lost anything by trying to extract a few more chips out of him.

So there I was sitting there kicking myself in the ass, angry because I might not have gotten maximum value out of my hand when something else occurred to me. If I had been playing live, I would have been penalized for not raising with nuts. I didn't know this guy. I wasn't soft playing him to be merciful. I wasn't even looking for information. I already had a pretty good read on how this guy played. I just brain farted. There was nothing sinister going on. I didn't have any ulterior motives. I just wasn't playing full attention. Granted, in a live game I wouldn't be sitting at the table cleaning firearms. But the point is that people get distracted or just plain make mistakes.

Of course we can't rule out the possibility of two players knowing each other, and in the case of them being in a hand against each other and the one that is last to act in that hand having the absolute nuts, that they might decide to soft play one another. But should that scenario always be assumed to be the case and any other possibility, such as one player trying to get read on the other, be disregarded?
 
Henry Minute

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Either he accidentally misread it or its his friend.
Even if it's his friend how does that help? The guy still loses to the nuts. If the last to act on the final street bets with the possibility of the nuts out there you are folding 90%+ of the time anyway.

I think it's one of the daftest rules in poker and benefits no-one. Daniel got it right in the video posted by S3mper. Also who hasn't seen the video of Ivey mucking his FH because he misread the board. If a player of his capabilities can do it then sure as sh1t so can I. In any event, there is a lot of misinterpretation of what is the 'nut hand' in many circumstances so the definition of this rule needs to be tightened up considerably.
 
OzExorcist

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But should that scenario always be assumed to be the case and any other possibility, such as one player trying to get read on the other, be disregarded?

You're absolutely right, it's not always collusion or soft play every time somebody fails to bet/raise the nuts on the river. More often that not it's a brainfart or a misclick or just plain ignorance.

Like I said above though, that's not a good reason to get rid of the rule. It's just a good reason to give floor people the leeway to make a judgement call on how severe the penalty is, if one is even given at all.

I think it's one of the daftest rules in poker and benefits no-one. Daniel got it right in the video posted by S3mper. Also who hasn't seen the video of Ivey mucking his FH because he misread the board. If a player of his capabilities can do it then sure as sh1t so can I. In any event, there is a lot of misinterpretation of what is the 'nut hand' in many circumstances so the definition of this rule needs to be tightened up considerably.

Erm... no, it benefits all players by stopping people from soft playing or colluding in certain situations.

Furthermore, I don't think that the rule as it stands hurts anyone, so there's no good reasons to get rid of it. Overzealous application of the rule (imposing a one-round penalty for a novice player's genuine mistake, for example) can be detrimental, but that's the fault of the floorperson choosing the penalty, not the rule itself.

And I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no possible misinterpretation of the term "nut hand". It's a clearly defined term in poker. You can make a bunch of other arguments about the rule, but its definition is crystal clear. A player either has the nuts, or they don't. They're either last to act, or they're not. And they either bet/raise, or they don't.

As for Ivey mucking his hand yes, that proves that brainfarts happen. And like I've said a bunch of times now, that's just an argument for floorpeople being given leeway in applying penalties, not an argument to get rid of the rule.
 
teepack

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c mon man why to suspend the player.. I think playin loose is a great thing for those who can..and you don t have to judge his decision..there are a lot of bad beaters..and how do you know if he was nuts? did you saw his cards?

Of course I know he had the nuts. Once he checked he had to show his cards to win the hand.
 
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Maybe soft playing or collusion. My guess is that maybe he was new and didn't realize he had the nuts or didn't realize he was the last to act. Not totally sure though. Something is definitely not right with the way the player acted though for sure.
 
teepack

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In any event, there is a lot of misinterpretation of what is the 'nut hand' in many circumstances so the definition of this rule needs to be tightened up considerably.

There is no misinterpretation of the "nuts." The nuts means you have the best possible hand, period. It doesn't mean you have a really good hand. It means you cannot be beaten. If the board is A-A-10-6-4, then the best possible hand is quad aces - them's the nuts! However if you have A-10, then you also have the nuts because that means nobody can have quads if you have the third ace. Another player could also have A-10, which would mean you both have the nuts. If the board is A-J-8-7-4 with no more than two of any one suit, then a jack high straight is the nuts. It really isn't hard to figure out.
 
Henry Minute

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There is no misinterpretation of the "nuts." The nuts means you have the best possible hand, period. It doesn't mean you have a really good hand. It means you cannot be beaten. If the board is A-A-10-6-4, then the best possible hand is quad aces - them's the nuts! However if you have A-10, then you also have the nuts because that means nobody can have quads if you have the third ace. Another player could also have A-10, which would mean you both have the nuts. If the board is A-J-8-7-4 with no more than two of any one suit, then a jack high straight is the nuts. It really isn't hard to figure out.
You know that and I know that.

What I am saying is that people misuse the term frequently.
 
OzExorcist

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You know that and I know that.

What I am saying is that people misuse the term frequently.

Even if that's the case (I don't think it's something many people do, but whatever) it's still not a reason to change or get rid of the rule.

That'd be like saying the offside rule should be removed from sports just because a lot of people don't understand it.
 
Thinker_145

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In cash games there should only be 2 exceptions to this rule. First if the board has the nuts then absolutely nothing wrong with the check.

The next part applies to just calling the river with the nuts instead of raising but checking in position cannot be justified. This can be done at times when you don't have the exclusive nuts like you have the nut straight but your opponent could have it as well. You cannot enforce a raise rule for these sort of hands in raked cash games.

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OzExorcist

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I agree on the first point - not so much the second one though. Keep in mind too that this is only an issue in cases where the rake cap hasn't already been reached. And even if it hasn't been, I would still think raising would be the correct thing to do as all the times you get paid off by the second-nuts or worse should more than outweigh any small increases in rake.
 
Thinker_145

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I agree on the first point - not so much the second one though. Keep in mind too that this is only an issue in cases where the rake cap hasn't already been reached. And even if it hasn't been, I would still think raising would be the correct thing to do as all the times you get paid off by the second-nuts or worse should more than outweigh any small increases in rake.

It actually depends on the board. If I have the nut straight on a KQJT board and I know very well that my opponent will not pay me off with a 9 then it's alright to just call. Okay I suppose one should always 2 bet with the nuts but certainly its not always necessary to 3 bet/4 bet when it becomes obvious that it's a chop.

I suppose it depends on you as well, I don't have a reputation of making big bluffs so nobody is gonna call me thinking I am bluffing. But if one does have such a reputation then sure they can keep raising.

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teepack

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You know that and I know that.

What I am saying is that people misuse the term frequently.

It's like saying that something is "very unique" or "somewhat unique." Unique means one of a kind. Something can't be very "one of a kind" or "somewhat one of a kind." It either is or is not unique. No ambiguity. Unique is not interchangeable with rare, and having the "nuts" is not interchangeable with "having a really good hand."
 
OzExorcist

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It actually depends on the board. If I have the nut straight on a KQJT board and I know very well that my opponent will not pay me off with a 9 then it's alright to just call. Okay I suppose one should always 2 bet with the nuts but certainly its not always necessary to 3 bet/4 bet when it becomes obvious that it's a chop.

I suppose it depends on you as well, I don't have a reputation of making big bluffs so nobody is gonna call me thinking I am bluffing. But if one does have such a reputation then sure they can keep raising.

But surely if you're in the situation of three/four betting on the river then you should already have reached the rake cap - or if you haven't, you probably need to find a better card room to be playing in...
 
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