***Jumpstarting January Chat Thread***

[Kasanova King]

If the highlighted text is true, how was it a bet for value???

Because you failed to mention the other part where I thought I may have been ahead. My play is highly dependent on reads - b/c I play mostly live. I play each one of my opponents on a table differently, depending on how I think they play, so the bet was for 2 reasons, at the time it COULD have been a value bet but when he called I gained information that would save me $$ on the river. If I had checked it down, the villain would have made a big bet on the river, leaving me with a difficult decision. The turn bet prevented that from happening.

 

[jewboy07]

KK u should really really listen to what these folks are telling you.. Some of us argued with them in the past and guess what? There right.. There smart ppl who are way better than us..

you mean "they're smart people." cant tell if your comment is sarcasm or not.

anywho kasanova if you're betting for value and someone calls that's what you wanted because by saying you're betting for value means you think you have the best hand there.

you cant say im value betting and then when you get called all of a sudden think you have the worst hand. it doesn't work both ways

 

[Kasanova King]

KK u should really really listen to what these folks are telling you.. Some of us argued with them in the past and guess what? There right.. There smart ppl who are way better than us..

Be quiet and soak in the information there trying to get us to absorb

I'm not trying to make enemies here and I am here to gain information and improve my game. I'm also not going to say I'm wrong when I know I'm right. Was there another possible way for that hand to be played, sure. In that situation, against that opponent,etc, it was the right play that would have worked out had I not misclicked on the river. Would I have played the hand differently vs. another opponent, absolutely. Poker isn't 100% based on math - there is a huge psychological factor in the game that many of these mathematicians brush off way too easily.

 

[PC69]

FYI I meant what I said. I wasnt being sarcastic

 

[Kasanova King]

you mean "they're smart people." cant tell if your comment is sarcasm or not.

anywho kasanova if you're betting for value and someone calls that's what you wanted because by saying you're betting for value means you think you have the best hand there.

you cant say im value betting and then when you get called all of a sudden think you have the worst hand. it doesn't work both ways

Lol...ok, that makes sense...let me see, how can I explain this the best way. At the time I made the bet I thought it may have been a value bet b/c I knew if he had raised, he most likely still drawing on the flush or had a worse hand. The guy would not have raised a made hand. Since he just called, then I knew he had me beat - does that make sense??

 

[WVHillbilly]

2 great ways to never learn anything:
Not be willing to admit you're wrong
Knowing you're right.

 

[adsthepro123]

CC

Happy new year to you too CC, and you are the best forum on the web without doubt and the biggest.
I just want to say a big thankyou to all the CC staff for putting on such a great site!

 

[Kasanova King]

2 great ways to never learn anything:
Not be willing to admit you're wrong
Knowing you're right.

Ok, so please answer this, if I check the turn, what do I do on the river when villain makes a big bet?

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Hey Kassanova... This better poker minds at this forum are not usually going to gently walk you through when they see errors in your play or thinking. They are gonna tear it apart like a pack of... well... sharks.

I am an idiot, so I will confuse you with nonsense, but politely.

In a tournament, where chipstacks are set and limited, "betting for information" has some merit (imho). But consider a rebuy tourney. Are you ever "betting for info" in that circumstance? Of course not. Because the players at the table with you are playing their perceived hand potential against the ranges of their opponents, and will rebuy if they go bust.

Cash is more like a rebuy tourney than a non rebuy. But there are still some differences.

You will find that better players are not ever betting for information. They are not even actually trying to "take down a pot right now". In fact, I might argue they are not even concerned with pots nearly as much as with value.

Instead they are trying to maximize their value against the range of hands their opponent(s) are playing.

This sort of thinking is easily defended mathematically, but it is not even just about math. It is about logic and playing in a way that will produce the best return over the long haul.

Poker isn't 100% based on math - there is a huge psychological factor in the game that many of these mathematicians brush off way too easily.

Sure here are players who are "mathy" and players who are "feely" along with a mass of folks who fall more in the middle.

But the good players on both ends of the spectrum will realize you are wrong about what you just said above. Even the "psycological factor" can be quantified and even reduced by math and it's kindred logic.

In the end pretty much anything you do in a poker hand can be represented mathematically.

Good luck!

Oh... and it looks to me from the info you provided at the first that playing 25cent cap is awfully high and volatile poker to be playing with that other half of your bankroll. But that's just my opinion.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Ok, so please answer this, if I check the turn, what do I do on the river when villain makes a big bet?

You figure out if he's bluffing enough to make calling profitable. If he is you call, otherwise you fold (or misclick ).

 

[Jurn8]

betting for value means you want to get called by worse hands not so they raise you with weaker hands. I doubt anybody ever beluga bluffs that board like ever at 25NL.

why would he not raise a made hand on the turn? so if he raises the turn you jam 2 pair or whats your line?

 

[Kasanova King]

You figure out if he's bluffing enough to make calling profitable. If he is you call, otherwise you fold (or misclick ).

Ok, that makes sense, if you know the exact % of times he's bluffing. I don't use any tracking software or HUD, Hold Em Manager, etc, so I have to go by my reads and feels on that table - I have been taking notes on just about everyone I play but there are so many different people that play 25NL that you only run into a few regulars here and there.

Maybe over the course of a million hands, I will lose money making that play but for that one hand, it would have saved me money on the river or at least a hard laydown and not knowing whether he was bluffing or not. This is all if I had not misclicked, of course,

betting for value means you want to get called by worse hands not so they raise you with weaker hands. I doubt anybody ever beluga bluffs that board like ever at 25NL.

why would he not raise a made hand on the turn? so if he raises the turn you jam 2 pair or whats your line?

Yeah, actually this guy did, at least 3 other times previously - he would raise gut shot straight draws - yeah, that bad.

This guy thinks he's a tricky player and would just do the classic slow play made hands until the river, then pop it. Very easy to read - classic strong when weak, weak when strong player.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't jam 2 pair against 90% of the players out there but against this guy in this situation, probably.

 

[Kasanova King]

Hey Kassanova... This better poker minds at this forum are not usually going to gently walk you through when they see errors in your play or thinking. They are gonna tear it apart like a pack of... well... sharks.

I am an idiot, so I will confuse you with nonsense, but politely.

In a tournament, where chipstacks are set and limited, "betting for information" has some merit (imho). But consider a rebuy tourney. Are you ever "betting for info" in that circumstance? Of course not. Because the players at the table with you are playing their perceived hand potential against the ranges of their opponents, and will rebuy if they go bust.

Cash is more like a rebuy tourney than a non rebuy. But there are still some differences.

You will find that better players are not ever betting for information. They are not even actually trying to "take down a pot right now". In fact, I might argue they are not even concerned with pots nearly as much as with value.

Instead they are trying to maximize their value against the range of hands their opponent(s) are playing.

This sort of thinking is easily defended mathematically, but it is not even just about math. It is about logic and playing in a way that will produce the best return over the long haul.

Sure here are players who are "mathy" and players who are "feely" along with a mass of folks who fall more in the middle.

But the good players on both ends of the spectrum will realize you are wrong about what you just said above. Even the "psycological factor" can be quantified and even reduced by math and it's kindred logic.

In the end pretty much anything you do in a poker hand can be represented mathematically.

Good luck!

Oh... and it looks to me from the info you provided at the first that playing 25cent cap is awfully high and volatile poker to be playing with that other half of your bankroll. But that's just my opinion.

Thanks for your polite response. I have read poker theorem and am very aware of EV. There are unkowns - or "incomplete information" - even in poker theorem and it is all based on hundreds of millions of hands played. Yes, like I said, maybe that play will end up being a -EV play over the course of a million hands, but for that one play, against that one player in that specific situation with the board, etc. it would have saved me money on the river...or at least a difficult decision.

 

[dmorris68]

Ugh, 3.5BI downswong at 100NL tonight (well, 1.75BI deep). Bad luck after bad luck. FTP's river hates me or something.

Here's a typical hand -- thank jebus he was short or it would have cost me my stack.

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------

Full Tilt, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (MP1): $179.55 (179.6 bb)
MP2: $104.90 (104.9 bb)
MP3: $66.35 (66.4 bb)
CO: $26.70 (26.7 bb)
BTN: $131.30 (131.3 bb)
SB: $130.25 (130.3 bb)
BB: $204.15 (204.2 bb)
UTG+1: $189.30 (189.3 bb)
UTG+2: $100 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP1 with A

A

2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, CO calls $3.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($8.50) K

6

K

(2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO calls $4

Turn: ($16.50) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $10, CO raises to $19.20 and is all-in, Hero calls $9.20

River: ($54.90) K

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $54.90 pot ($2.70 rake)
CO showed J

K

(four of a kind, Kings) and won $52.20 ($25.50 net)
Hero showed A

A

(a full house, Aces full of Kings) and lost (-$26.70 net)

 

[Kasanova King]

Ugh, 3.5BI downswong at 100NL tonight (well, 1.75BI deep). Bad luck after bad luck. FTP's river hates me or something.

Here's a typical hand -- thank jebus he was short or it would have cost me my stack.

--------------------
HAND #1
--------------------

Full Tilt, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (MP1): $179.55 (179.6 bb)
MP2: $104.90 (104.9 bb)
MP3: $66.35 (66.4 bb)
CO: $26.70 (26.7 bb)
BTN: $131.30 (131.3 bb)
SB: $130.25 (130.3 bb)
BB: $204.15 (204.2 bb)
UTG+1: $189.30 (189.3 bb)
UTG+2: $100 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP1 with A

A

2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, CO calls $3.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($8.50) K

6

K

(2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO calls $4

Turn: ($16.50) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $10, CO raises to $19.20 and is all-in, Hero calls $9.20

River: ($54.90) K

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $54.90 pot ($2.70 rake)
CO showed J

K

(four of a kind, Kings) and won $52.20 ($25.50 net)
Hero showed A

A

(a full house, Aces full of Kings) and lost (-$26.70 net)

Wow, that is a tough beat. Gotta love one outers that hit on the river.

 

[KerouacsDog]

Sustainable?(thats me, by the way!)

 

[Jurn8]

sigh exams tomorrow, tues and friday, cmon the snow!!

 

[PattyR]

sigh exams tomorrow, tues and friday, cmon the snow!!

how do u have exams already man..second semester doesn even start til monday for me

 

[ph_il]

Eh cool a chat thread...

Lets see, started playing pokers again this month. Well started with TM's tournament where i placed 6th or something. Made some money and then downswong on $1 SNGs for a bit. Guess I was a bit rusty. Put some money on FTP, played more $1 SNGs. Played about 20 games or so, broke out near even, then lost a bunch after. Remembered I hated full tilt, transferred money to PS.

This is where things got good. Think I played 4 $1 45-seat Turbo SNGs. Took first in 1 and 4th in another which brought my BR back to even (from my first FTP deposit). Decided to drop 45-seat SNGs/only play them every now and then. Picked up the $1.75 18-seat Turbo SNGs; I feel these are the games I can beat consistently. I hit a huge upswing as shown on my SS last year and I manage to beat the low orbit BoP on stars playing these games...before I started playing other stuff and lost a bunch. So, I'm back to playing them and plan to in order to build my roll up. (I eventually want to be BR'd enough to play 10nl comfortably). So far, in 7 games, I've cashed 6x with 2 first places, boosting my BR $30.

...So far, so good.

 

[Jurn8]

Ours 2nd semester starts 26th Jan, these are 1st Semester exams, im from england yo we do it opposite to you guys

 

[PattyR]

Ours 2nd semester starts 26th Jan, these are 1st Semester exams, im from england yo we do it opposite to you guys

oooo haha well that makes much more sense bud

 

[eNTy]

Ours 2nd semester starts 26th Jan, these are 1st Semester exams, im from england yo we do it opposite to you guys

my exams end jan 25 and 2nd semester start feb 8
2 exams down 6 more to go

this week is hell, got one monday, tuesday, thursday and saturday

 

[Jurn8]

reading that dude, I thought 6 exams sucks, then you have 4 this week which sucks even more then saw you had one on saturday which sucks massive dong!

 

[switch0723]

OMG PHILTHY IS HERE!!!!!!

 

[eNTy]

reading that dude, I thought 6 exams sucks, then you have 4 this week which sucks even more then saw you had one on saturday which sucks massive dong!

indeed

but since im a massive welcher (not u switch) im gonna not do the one on tuesday since i can never get it done anyway, and just straight away do it in resits in august

wadup philtheiii