In The Tank: TPTK on the turn vs LAG and TAP

Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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pokerstars Game #17015813428: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/04/26 - 19:34:46 (ET)
Table 'Meta' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: pirzola ($32.80 in chips)
Seat 2: THC#01 ($42.05 in chips)
Seat 3: watisqualle ($127.95 in chips)
Seat 4: DeaDinaDitch ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Alanimus ($66.85 in chips)
Seat 6: ShichiFuku ($50 in chips)
watisqualle: posts small blind $0.25
DeaDinaDitch: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DeaDinaDitch [Ah Js]
Alanimus: folds
ShichiFuku: folds
pirzola: calls $0.50
THC#01: raises $1 to $1.50
watisqualle: calls $1.25
DeaDinaDitch: calls $1
pirzola: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [3d 7s Jh]
watisqualle: checks
DeaDinaDitch: bets $4
pirzola: calls $4
THC#01: calls $4
watisqualle: folds
*** TURN *** [3d 7s Jh] [4s]
DeaDinaDitch: checks
pirzola: bets $5
THC#01: calls $5
DeaDinaDitch: Goes completely into the tank

pirzola is super loose aggressive and prone to rediculous bluffs.
THC#01 is Tight Passive. In 30 hands or so I haven't seen any real bone headed plays.
There were no obv draws on the flop. Pirzola could be in with any 2. What's keeping 2 opponents interested in this pot?
Could my TPTK be any good???
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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*ridiculous

:)

OOP sucks. I actually don't mind calling this and only really continuing on flops like these or AJx etc, but the only reason I'd call OOP is to induce calls from worse hands from the fish behind us and to trap him postflop.

After the flop I assume THC would raise with an overpair so I'd be pretty surprised to see us actually behind here. We're killing the other guy's range assuming your read is correct. I probably just bet-fold the turn to the tight guy and get it in against the lag.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Do we not 3 bet this pf?

As played bet/folding is an option, as is calling the turn and assessing the river. Hmmm, out of these 2 options, in hindsight I like the bet/fold option, but in reality I probably would call.

I think if we 3bet this pf, we would have got rid of one of the villains, which would make post flop a lot clearer.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Do we not 3 bet this pf?

As played bet/folding is an option, as is calling the turn and assessing the river. Hmmm, out of these 2 options, in hindsight I like the bet/fold option, but in reality I probably would call.

I think if we 3bet this pf, we would have got rid of one of the villains, which would make post flop a lot clearer.
That's an even better question for discussion. IMO no. AJ is not a strong enough hand to 3 bet in this situation. Given that 3 players have VP$iP'd I'm not all that excited about my AJ. A RR would have to be in the range of $5-$6 and I would have to fold to a 4 bet.

I'm only calling this because I'm getting a discount on a flop that could be profitable should it hit me just right. And it did, TPTK, no Ace, I felt pretty comfortable with this result, even OP. But still, I have no redraws and I'd like to be sure I'm not facing a set or 2 pairs, which is likely enough when 4 people see the flop; not to mention that AA-JJ are all possible as well. When I bet the pot and got 2 callers, alarm bells went off in my head. Time to slow things down.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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In 6max, HU against most villains, I 3bet AJ from the BB when im facing a raise from the btn. His range is huge there. We have a big hand, I don't really wanna face a multi way pot. If we get 4 bet then obv our hand is not good enough and we have saved some $ not getting involved post flop. If we had 3 bet pf then we would not have a difficult decision that we find ourselves having now imo.

We have really c
 
ABorges

ABorges

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You're getting great odds to call. Pot is somewhere around 27$ and you have to call 5$ (a very small bet, but I guess that's because the button is not a very bright player. Could mean a monster though). You have to be ahead a very small percentage of times to make this call profitable.

It's not unlikely you're ahead of both players here; if the button is that loose and likes to bluff, you're very likely ahead of him, and the SB can very easily have a weaker J. I say call the turn and check/call the river if it's not a very big bet and if the SB gets rid of his hand after the button bets, which he will most of the time he's checked to.

Oh, and I agree that we should think about 3 betting this preflop and sandwich in the callers, but a call is a good move if you can outplay the rest of the players postflop.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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In 6max, HU against most villains, I 3bet AJ from the BB when im facing a raise from the btn. His range is huge there. We have a big hand, I don't really wanna face a multi way pot. If we get 4 bet then obv our hand is not good enough and we have saved some $ not getting involved post flop. If we had 3 bet pf then we would not have a difficult decision that we find ourselves having now imo.

We have really c
I don't see it as that big a hand, at least not PF, and it was already a MW pot, a RR here probably would have made it just a bigger MW pot. I'm caertainly willing to consider that I may be wrong about this though.

If this was the river I would have made the call in a heart beat. With another round of betting I need to think about it. Great calling odds to be sure, but unless I hit another jack on the river I'm not calling another bet that will probably be in the $10 to $15 range.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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AJ is a big hand in the BB when facing a btn raise. Obv we have to be careful b/c we are oop. But seriously we are leaving money on the table by playing so passively with a decent hand in the BB. If the btn villain has stats like 8/2/1 with Att to steal of <10% and raises, then we can play the hand more passively, in fact I probably fold.

It's definately a style issue. I don't think your play is that bad, but I tend to be more aggro in 6max especially.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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AJ is a big hand in the BB when facing a btn raise. Obv we have to be careful b/c we are oop. But seriously we are leaving money on the table by playing so passively with a decent hand in the BB. If the btn villain has stats like 8/2/1 with Att to steal of <10% and raises, then we can play the hand more passively, in fact I probably fold.

It's definately a style issue. I don't think your play is that bad, but I tend to be more aggro in 6max especially.
Oh I'm aggressive enough. About 35/16/2 in this session, but let's remember that it was the tighty who raised from the button, and the sb was calling with something. I'll post the results in a bit. I'm on my way to another sunday million ATM.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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PokerStars Game #17015813428: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/04/26 - 19:34:46 (ET)
Table 'Meta' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: pirzola ($32.80 in chips)
Seat 2: THC#01 ($42.05 in chips)
Seat 3: watisqualle ($127.95 in chips)
Seat 4: DeaDinaDitch ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Alanimus ($66.85 in chips)
Seat 6: ShichiFuku ($50 in chips)
watisqualle: posts small blind $0.25
DeaDinaDitch: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DeaDinaDitch [Ah Js]
Alanimus: folds
ShichiFuku: folds
pirzola: calls $0.50
THC#01: raises $1 to $1.50
watisqualle: calls $1.25
DeaDinaDitch: calls $1
pirzola: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [3d 7s Jh]
watisqualle: checks
DeaDinaDitch: bets $4
pirzola: calls $4
THC#01: calls $4
watisqualle: folds
*** TURN *** [3d 7s Jh] [4s]
DeaDinaDitch: checks
pirzola: bets $5
THC#01: calls $5
DeaDinaDitch: folds
*** RIVER *** [3d 7s Jh 4s] [8c]
pirzola: checks
THC#01: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pirzola: shows [Qh 3h] (a pair of Threes)
THC#01: shows [Jc Qs] (a pair of Jacks)
THC#01 collected $26.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $28 | Rake $1.35
Board [3d 7s Jh 4s 8c]
Seat 1: pirzola showed [Qh 3h] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 2: THC#01 (button) showed [Jc Qs] and won ($26.65) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 3: watisqualle (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: DeaDinaDitch (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: Alanimus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ShichiFuku folded before Flop (didn't bet)
As it turns out I was had. If I had been up against 1 opp after the flop I would have bet again on the turn and check called the river. My line of thinking is that 1 opponent could be bluffing or overvaluing a weaker hand. That was less likely vs 2. So I made what I thought was a smart laydown.

I didn't come away from this empty handed though. I had a much better read on both of them after this hand and I walked away with $31.70 from pirzola and $41.40 from THC.
 
B

bw07507

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Oh I'm aggressive enough. About 35/16/2 in this session, but let's remember that it was the tighty who raised from the button, and the sb was calling with something. I'll post the results in a bit. I'm on my way to another sunday million ATM.

35/16/2 is not that aggressive. You are raising less than half your hands preflop
 
B

bw07507

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Loose and aggressive are not the same thing, I actually think 35% VPIP is high, even for 6max. The closer your VPIP is to your PFR is the determiner for how aggressive you are preflop. The closer the two numbers, the more aggressive you are, the farther apart the more passive you are.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Typical TAG stats for 6 max would be 20/18/3 or 24/22/3 or the likes. LAGGY stats would be around 30/28/5, 34/32/5 or the likes. 36/16/2 as has been mentioned is not particulary LAG and is definately not TAG.
 
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