I have a question, pls answer?

[Jam Castro]

I have to say it's a CALL!
You have the biggest pair and it's a rare case(once in awhile)that you're going to have a pair of aces. I believe a lot of poker player would agree that calling is a good decision.

We can consider "it depends in the situation"...but most of the time players with this kind of hole cards will call.

 

[TheUndertaker]

After outlasting 3991 just to win winning $1000 doesn't seem good to me but on short stack and holding AA have to go for it I'll push all-in I just can't see myself folding in this situation.

 

[zachvac]

Wow sorry guys but WV and Belgo are 100% right here. Do you understand what icm is? If not read up on it, it's extremely important. If your goal is to maximize your expectation in the tourney, icm is THE correct answer. There is no opinion. Obviously because of money having different values (ie like WV said difference between 1k and 100k) sometimes the decision will be different but it can be modeled either way. It's not an opinion thing.

Here's a different scenario:
Payouts:
1st-8th: $1 million
9th: $5





Player A: 1 chip
Player B: 1 chip
Player C: 1 chip
Player D: 1 chip
Player E: 1 chip
Player F: 1 chip
Player G: 1 chip
SB: 1,000,000,000 chips
you (in BB): 1,000,000,000 chips.

All the 1 chips fold, SB shoves. Would you not now agree that it is an extremely easy fold? If you have AA you should never ever ever ever ever call this.

Now since you see this extreme case, you agree there must be a point in the middle of normal structures and this extreme structure where the question whether to fold or call with AA is on the border. It's not cut and dry omg I have AA ARRRRIN. If you don't understand icm and how different pay structures affect how you should play maybe you should read up on that before playing in more tourneys.

 

[blankoblanco]

oh no not this thread again my head hurts make it stop

p.s. zach and WV and belgo are obviously right

 

[kleitches]

Thanks Belgo. Thought I had that one setup to be a no-brainer fold. Guess I was wrong.

Having said that, I still fold and here's why: Winning $1000 is going to make zero difference to my life. Winning $200,000 certainly will and I'm pretty sure I can fold my way (if the situation requires it) to 3rd and likely to 2nd. Even if I get to HU down 2:1 in chips, my expectation is roughly $430,000. The difference to me and my life between $1K and $200K is MUCH greater than the difference between $700K and $300K.

Plus since I suck at tourneys I'm like never going to have the chance for the big payday ever again!

+1

Plus everyone knows tourneys are rigged when you're at the final table with AA

 

[Infamous1020]

{Quote}ok since you are noobs and need to be spoonfed,please take notes I wont repeat the answer{quote}


The question was "your opinion" of this situation.
As a noob I wouldnt be so presumptious as to assume your answer!
After all that, we agree that it is proper to "call the all in"

In this case its a simple yes or no, black and white ICM question. Belgo is correct. Its not an "opinion", its what is proper play.

oh btw, what is 2+2, was just wondering your opinion. I think its 4, but im not sure.

 

[naruto_miu]

FUBAR.

Plz explain what fubar is?

 

[zachvac]

oh btw, what is 2+2, was just wondering your opinion. I think its 4, but im not sure.

How can you not be sure on your opinion? This is an opinion question, not factual. imo 2+2 is 5.3994 but others believe differently.

 

[Vollycat]

I guess there are silly hypotheticals and all that could equate to contemplating a fold preflop hu with AA...Zach has certainly attained that status with his example. However, in real world situations, ICM even confirmed to push it--Belgo proved that. Unless you are playing some wack homegame with a screwball payout structure, throwing away AA preflop vs 1 opponent is WAY -EV. There is no math that can prove otherwise. Yes, yes, that wasn't the OP's whole point, but I cannot imagine any real tournament I would play in that I would do anything but push. If so many posters here 'need to explain things to the noobs', then how about making sure we keep some concept of reality so as not to confuse anyone. It is foolish to throw away AA preflop vs 1 opponent. It's that simple.

 

[zachvac]

I guess there are silly hypotheticals and all that could equate to contemplating a fold preflop hu with AA...Zach has certainly attained that status with his example. However, in real world situations, ICM even confirmed to push it--Belgo proved that. Unless you are playing some wack homegame with a screwball payout structure, throwing away AA preflop vs 1 opponent is WAY -EV. There is no math that can prove otherwise. Yes, yes, that wasn't the OP's whole point, but I cannot imagine any real tournament I would play in that I would do anything but push. If so many posters here 'need to explain things to the noobs', then how about making sure we keep some concept of reality so as not to confuse anyone. It is foolish to throw away AA preflop vs 1 opponent. It's that simple.

Sorry but no. There are several places in real life mtts, namely near the bubbles of flatter payout structures where folding AA would be the correct play. First off in satellites but also in more traditional mtts. I mentioned a few weeks ago the Sunday million the first payout was like 5000th and you didn't get another pay increase until like 2000th and to double again (ie say for simplicity 5000th paid $500, to get to $1000) you had to be in like the top 500. If you are a shorter stack that can still make it into the money by folding, that's the correct strategy even with AA close to the money. The logic is that by folding you guarantee yourself the first money and winning doesn't increase your expectation enough to take the risk.

But you're right, if someone is new and learning poker as a general rule they most likely won't make any huge mistakes by never folding AA preflop. But this isn't the learning poker section, and there are a good amount of people posting here who are not completely new to tourneys and so discussing icm is perfectly reasonable. As a general rule you should not be looking for spots to fold AA. But to pretend they don't exist is pretty naive.

 

[Vollycat]

As a general rule you should not be looking for spots to fold AA. But to pretend they don't exist is pretty naive.

This is a great statement. There are tournies that allow equal pay to all spots and you are confident you can fold out and make it there with your current stack, etc (Sklansky describes this in one of his books). However, nearing money bubbles and having the chance to go deeper I will not fold AA. In fact, nearing a money bubble you should be MORE likely to call here because the chance that the big stack is pushing with an even weaker hand is that much more likely.

There are different thoeries to 'just making the money and profit' to 'playing for the win'. And i think WV described a great reason why he would decide to fold because of his current financial situation.

Yet, there are few times you are going to get to the river and then have the chance to see 'I have the nuts, I can now go all-in'--much less not contributing any money through the other streets to get to showdown. If there is a time where you have the opportunity to gather chips, AA vs 1 opponent does not get any better. No disputing that. Going deep or cashing out in 5000th for pittance....yes, I'm rolling the bones so I can get paid and make up for all the other times I may have bubbled. Over the long run, AA will pay you more (WAY more)--Even ICM shows that.

 

[zachvac]

However, nearing money bubbles and having the chance to go deeper I will not fold AA. In fact, nearing a money bubble you should be MORE likely to call here because the chance that the big stack is pushing with an even weaker hand is that much more likely.

Here's the thing. You have roughly the same equity vs. KK as you do against 27o, so it doesn't matter what the other player has. You are essentially asked the question, do you want to have 80% chance to double your stack, and 20% to lose or not? What your opponent has makes extremely little difference and in fact worse hands like 56s play better against AA than KK or AK do.

There are different thoeries to 'just making the money and profit' to 'playing for the win'. And i think WV described a great reason why he would decide to fold because of his current financial situation.

But most of these "theories" are wrong. Trust me, I've been on the complete other sides on other issues. I'm not one of the people who think you should just sit and fold to the money, and I've advocated pushing small edges to the max in mtts, for the simple reason that it improves our expectation. That's what we should be looking at. If we want to adjust what the money means to us similar to what WV said, that's one thing. But to say "well I'm playing to money" is generally a bad strategy as is simply "playing to win". There are certain places in tourneys where you have an 80% edge and it's correct to fold and others where you have 35% to win and it's a snap-call.

Yet, there are few times you are going to get to the river and then have the chance to see 'I have the nuts, I can now go all-in'--much less not contributing any money through the other streets to get to showdown. If there is a time where you have the opportunity to gather chips, AA vs 1 opponent does not get any better. No disputing that. Going deep or cashing out in 5000th for pittance....yes, I'm rolling the bones so I can get paid and make up for all the other times I may have bubbled. Over the long run, AA will pay you more (WAY more)--Even ICM shows that.

ICM shows based on the payout structure. You agree in a satellite that icm dictates folding AA if you're a massive chip leader with another big stack, I'm saying there are other spots where icm says you can fold AA. They are few and far between, but yes they exist. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Vollycat]

ICM shows based on the payout structure. You agree in a satellite that icm dictates folding AA if you're a massive chip leader with another big stack, I'm saying there are other spots where icm says you can fold AA. They are few and far between, but yes they exist. That's all I'm trying to say.

Aggreed. The next question that begs shouting is, 'Why would the other big stack push so much in this situation?' bah, learned long ago to try and stay out of the heads of fish theory...no rhyme or reason many times.

 

[evildoesit2003]

Thats a tough ? because I am thinking I would be better to try to survive for a bigger payday but then again knowing me I would probably go for it like am I gonna get a better hand to do that with not likely.

 

[dillingerdis]

All in of course! Why not, because it 'might' lose to a suckout hand? Kind of a weird way to live and play. Im calling.

 

[FlowJoe]

Not enough information. If I have allin covered by large x's, I call. If for tournament life with large stack with these payouts, I fold. If I'm short I call. It depends. Not enough information!!
Peace,
FLOW

 

[19RK64]

Really folding AA is leaving A lot of equity at the table and if they catch on to you folding hands like this at final table they can just about push you off any preflop bet to come, or at least can make every decision a tuff one for you seeing how you could fold preflop nuts to a all-in.

Im trying to think where I read it, but their was a verry well known "Pro player" that spoke on this, and his version was his stack was ok and he was UTG holding AA and new it was totaly impossible to limp in with four stacks under 9BB at the table and 8 players to make their choice after him, well to sum it up he said: in this case I folded AA cause the difference in winning were in 100 of thousands, per spot in placement. thus wouldn't want to give to chance of losing his ground, waiting for better position, to play cards.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Noone who gets to the final table is folding AA to a preflop all-in.

 

[19RK64]

I have, but it wasn't cause I new I was beat, or cause I was playing for big winnings. It was cause I needed to place to keep on playing (low Funds),
also qualifiers, first paid no more than fifth.

I don't believe this is some super style of game, it does produce problems, folding hands as such, A lot can happin when at final table, you really just need to get in their when you can.

 

[Bigsmak]

There would be a line of fire between the middle of the table where my chips now are and the spot in front of me where my chips used to be in this situation.

I understand the need to fold to win more money in crazy payout tournaments,.

BUT COME ON,.. you have AA and the other big stack is just trying to steal the blinds. In fact if he had a hand like KK, AK or QQ he wouldn't be shoving as he would want to play a pot with you. If his money goes all in, chances he has 66 or less and is just trying to take it down.

CALL CALL CALL

 

[WVHillbilly]

There would be a line of fire between the middle of the table where my chips now are and the spot in front of me where my chips used to be in this situation.

I understand the need to fold to win more money in crazy payout tournaments,.

BUT COME ON,.. you have AA and the other big stack is just trying to steal the blinds. In fact if he had a hand like KK, AK or QQ he wouldn't be shoving as he would want to play a pot with you. If his money goes all in, chances he has 66 or less and is just trying to take it down.

CALL CALL CALL

You, of course, realize that 66 has slightly MORE equity against AA than KK does and that it really doesn't matter what he has?

 

[playsuji6]

Call!!! ofcourse!! who wants to be lucky here, me or him. AA is also a lucky to you, and you cant expect better card than this. It is the good option to go allin in that situatuion

 

[Bigsmak]

You, of course, realize that 66 has slightly MORE equity against AA than KK does and that it really doesn't matter what he has?

Yup, straights and all

It really doesn't matter what he has..

ALL IN

 

[akaCLINT]

FOLD
pick off the shorties first.
Folding AA preflop is poker aswell, and this situation is NOT about EV, it is about placing HIGH.
This with the stacksizes given as above....
aC

 

[tbdbitl]

If you are in 9th place and won't call with AA preflop to go against 1 player to show down, then I take it you are sitting out the rest of the tournament.