How often are you willing to get it all-in pre flop with A,K?

[beantownmaniac]

well i like to look at A,K as the best pre-flop drawing hand

with the key being "drawing hand", since it is only A high

as such you would play it similar to a post flop 4 to flush, 4 to straight

you def. want to raise both for info and to give yourself 2 ways to win (i.e. bet them out or hit your A or K)

if you get re-raised and then someone re-re-raises, you can start to think, could i be up vs. AA or KK and make ur decision from there

it's easy to continue bet ... b/c even when u miss, u have 2 over cards ... obviously if you get re-raised on flop, now you think , hmmm do they have trips, a big draw, AA, KK

it's probably the easiest hand to bluff with on all 5 streets b/c you'll often play it like you had AA or KK, so even somebody with like AQ that hits their Q on the flop and holds top pair ... well they would certainly have a tough decision for all their chips on the river in that situation

anyway, long story short it is a very good hand pre-flop and after the flop, you just play poker

I like what you wrote, but the question is "how often are you willing to get it all-in preflop with A-K?"

 

[ben_rhyno]

AK is NOT a drawing hand and "raising for info" is blah

 

[Worak]

AK is NOT a drawing hand and "raising for info" is blah

I particularly second the second part: Raising for info is never a good idea.

 

[fugitive67]

I like what you wrote, but the question is "how often are you willing to get it all-in preflop with A-K?"

ha, good point

that's so situational though

i'll take it from this angle ... you are not short stacked ... let's say you have 30X the BB, so mid-stack, and you raise 4X with your AK in position

another player with slightly more chips re-raises all in from the Big Blind .. you don't have a read on the player and if you call it would just be the 2 of you to the flop (obviously the player has overbet, but still it's hard to read ... is that his play with Dueces, AQs, or AA ... who knows???)

so you go, hmmm, what he got ... AA, KK, AQ, AJ, AT or any pair

the only hand that totally ruins your day is AA

but you are a dog to KK

and probably a slight dog to most pairs, coin flip YES, but u know how that goes 52-48 ... i'd still rather be 52 ... real small pairs can be counterfeited, but again COIN FLIP

sure u dominate AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ but that is only 5 hands out of 20 possible hands that you can put your opponent on and the last 3 of those are pretty unlikely push hands

i certainly would not risk my tourney life there

so i guess, long story short, im not coin flipping for my tourney life unless i'm short stacked or pot committed

or if somehow the pot odds are very good ... i guess you could have limpers, then somebody else raises and the limpers go away, then you re-raise, then you get re-raised all-in ... now you've got a decent amount of extra chips up for grabs, so maybe you gamble

these are the things that make poker great ... im so sick about this US crap

 

[LuckyChippy]

Every single time. Card removal + equity = +EV

 

[papatango123]

never getting it alllin against a fullstack in cash games vs a competent player with ak ur behind almost always

 

[ben_rhyno]

ha, good point

that's so situational though

i'll take it from this angle ... you are not short stacked ... let's say you have 30X the BB, so mid-stack, and you raise 4X with your AK in position

another player with slightly more chips re-raises all in from the Big Blind .. you don't have a read on the player and if you call it would just be the 2 of you to the flop (obviously the player has overbet, but still it's hard to read ... is that his play with Dueces, AQs, or AA ... who knows???)

so you go, hmmm, what he got ... AA, KK, AQ, AJ, AT or any pair

the only hand that totally ruins your day is AA

but you are a dog to KK

and probably a slight dog to most pairs, coin flip YES, but u know how that goes 52-48 ... i'd still rather be 52 ... real small pairs can be counterfeited, but again COIN FLIP

sure u dominate AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ but that is only 5 hands out of 20 possible hands that you can put your opponent on and the last 3 of those are pretty unlikely push hands

i certainly would not risk my tourney life there

so i guess, long story short, im not coin flipping for my tourney life unless i'm short stacked or pot committed

or if somehow the pot odds are very good ... i guess you could have limpers, then somebody else raises and the limpers go away, then you re-raise, then you get re-raised all-in ... now you've got a decent amount of extra chips up for grabs, so maybe you gamble

these are the things that make poker great ... im so sick about this US crap

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
3,205,433,088 games 2.823 secs 1,135,470,452 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.137% 48.67% 04.46% 1560164400 143096886.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 46.863% 42.40% 04.46% 1359074916 143096886.00 { 22+, ATs+, ATo+ }

This is against your range of AA-22, ATs-AKs, ATo-AKo.
I think we can discount AA and KK due to card removal as Chippy said so:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
3,041,051,904 games 2.730 secs 1,113,938,426 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.948% 50.27% 04.68% 1528766760 142216290.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 45.052% 40.38% 04.68% 1227852564 142216290.00 { QQ-22, ATs+, ATo+ }
We are a favourite in each hand so getting AK all in vs opponents range in both cases is +EV

 

[Poker Orifice]

AK isn't that good of a hand.

This ^ isn't that good of a post.

So > how often are we willing to get it allin pre?

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Pretty often but last weekend in a live tourney I layed it down on one of those great reads. 14 people left in a 60 person tournament. Everyone is looking for any opportunity to double up or knock someone out.
I looked at the tight female raiser from EP (I was BB) and said, "If I show you mine, will you show me yours?" "One time", she replied. I flipped over AK. The table was aghast. Then she showed KK. Then the table burst out and made everyone look. One guy on the other end pointed at me and said, "That just got you to the final table my friend!" It did and I had a nice little cash in a chop. I do not remember laying AK down preflop before - certainly not live. I may have once or twice online.

 

[seachicken]

Pretty often but last weekend in a live tourney I layed it down on one of those great reads. 14 people left in a 60 person tournament. Everyone is looking for any opportunity to double up or knock someone out.
I looked at the tight female raiser from EP (I was BB) and said, "If I show you mine, will you show me yours?" "One time", she replied. I flipped over AK. The table was aghast. Then she showed KK. Then the table burst out and made everyone look. One guy on the other end pointed at me and said, "That just got you to the final table my friend!" It did and I had a nice little cash in a chop. I do not remember laying AK down preflop before - certainly not live. I may have once or twice online.

I bet you felt like a superstar. That is the best feeling. Two weeks ago i laid down queens against a super tight player in the middle of tournament and the guy showed 96o. I flet like a nit.

Did you make it to the final table?

 

[LarryT503]

In a tourney with large player numbers, or me sitting with below average stack I likely go all-in pre-flop, hoping to catch a break. Otherwise I'm probably blinded out anyway.

 

[Drivembig]

I think you just have to consider pot odds and card odds here. You have to think that you only have about 3 outs here if you are behind after your turn over your cards. If your up against AA then you have to have to have least 2 of the 3 kings to win. If your up against KK then you have to have at least 1 of the 3 aces left to win. Anything else that your opponent flips over increases your outs. So just calculate your odds. For me I would fold to an all in unless I have a huge chip lead. Also, as mentioned above, it depends on the person going all-in. If he has been playing pretty tight then you have to fold. If he has been playing pretty loose then you could probably call it pretty safe. Although, I just don't know if I would risk my tournament life on it. Keep track on how the cards are playing and how your opponent is playing and make your decision from there. You wont always play it the same every time.

 

[MediaBLITZ]

I bet you felt like a superstar. That is the best feeling. Two weeks ago i laid down queens against a super tight player in the middle of tournament and the guy showed 96o. I flet like a nit.

Did you make it to the final table?

Absolutely - Final 6 and we decided to chop the $2400 left in the pool.

 

[TIGERSTUMP]

i play ak diffrent all the time ,,sometimes i just 3bet it ,i sometimes just call in late position and somtimes i dont mind banging all in with ak ,,it all depends on the table im playin at

 

[WEC]

I never answered the question in my earlier post where I was "leveled".


I never have a problem getting AK all-in. I strongly perfer being the one pushing it all-in rather than calling it.

That said, I probably play AK more varied than any other hand. Many times I will flat call a raise, in certain situations I will fold it completely to a 3 bet (most likely if it is a cold call 3 bet with another player behind), in other ocassions I will make it a 3 bet allin. Once in a while, I will just push it allin preflop as an overbet (sometimes even very early in an MTT, generally where the MTT is smaller than my avg buyin for BR, or I have decided before the MTT I am getting chips early or bust-I almost always develop a pregame plan for each specific MTT I play). Generally though, very early in MTT I am extremely careful with AK and am likely flat calling a raise and avoiding getting it allin with a single pair of A, K on flop, turn. If I see a player is very aggressive, or I know he is very aggressive based on past play, I will almost always 3 bet AK, and more likely just to push it allin to many of his preflop raises.

 

[Pascal-lf]

What is a cold call 3bet with another player behind?

 

[NineLions]

never getting it alllin against a fullstack in cash games vs a competent player with ak ur behind almost always

My first read thru this thread. AK threads always collect a lot of cliche answers which better players try to disabuse. But no one's taken this one yet.

1) fullstack (and assumes that you are also full so the effective stack size is full)
2) cash game
3) competent player

equals almost always behind with AK? Even at 6 max? Even button vrs blinds? I reallly don't think this applies at either the lowest stakes, where players love Aces, especially suited, or at higher than $50 levels. If you think this way, then I'm going to 3-4 bet you with weaker, knowing that you're going to fold AK.

 

[papatango123]

My first read thru this thread. AK threads always collect a lot of cliche answers which better players try to disabuse. But no one's taken this one yet.

1) fullstack (and assumes that you are also full so the effective stack size is full)
2) cash game
3) competent player

equals almost always behind with AK? Even at 6 max? Even button vrs blinds? I reallly don't think this applies at either the lowest stakes, where players love Aces, especially suited, or at higher than $50 levels. If you think this way, then I'm going to 3-4 bet you with weaker, knowing that you're going to fold AK.

so if your playing against a tag ur guna ship ak all the time if hes 3bet/4bet u? the best you can possibly hope to be up against is AQs. Even fish dont like going allin without at least a pair preflop. I read some stuff from mpethybridge the leakfinder guy and he had stats showing that every hand bar aa was a loser allin preflop.

 

[Daniel72]

I will go all-in with AK very often in my turbo and non-turbo micro tournaments, because you get enough bad calls from crap, suited hands, lower aces and other dominated hands and of course some flips. As you know: AK wants to see 5 cards, so shiparooo !

 

[Pascal-lf]

In that 3 point situation I get in AK, as against a range of AA-QQ, AK, the occasional JJ/AQ, and the occasional bluff, it is a +EV play.

 

[wagon596]

I don't shove unless I'm short stacked....If someone has any pair I'm behind...I'd rather see a flop, then go from there...just my thoughts

 

[sryImPro]

This is so tricky to play and I hate it if I'm re-raised after I raised with it pre flop.

I'm willing only if I'm up against someone who I know will shove with a weaker ace.

+1