zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
How much does "tournament life" pay? Is there money involved in having a tournament life? I'm curious as to where HoH says this because I have a hunch this is totally false or at least a context issue. This situation came from a Stox tournament pro who regularly plays these stakes and he argued that anyone who would fold has a horrible tournament mentality. I think the fact that he has no BR problems while most of us would be ecstatic with doubling our buy-in may have something to do with it. But I'm pretty sure for tourneys we're rolled for taking a flip first hand of the tourney is the absolutely correct play.
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
like i said before i suck at tournies, but in a fields as soft as the main event that is spanned over 7 days, surely you would be better of just crushing your table with your skills and building your stack that way, than taking the high variance double or nothing flips throughout tourny
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Well from the math you are twice as likely as the average player to win the tourney if you take that small edge. Whether your skills could make up for more than that is one thing, but remember once you win the one double-up no longer are most flips for your tournament life. You can continue to outplay and even use the extra chips to your advantage to exploit the huge skill edge you have.
Egon Towst
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I agree, Zach.
However, the original question was whether we would do it specifically in the first hand of the wsop ME, and that requires factoring in other considerations which may conflict with the pure mathematics of the hand.
Phil Helmuth famously said that Poker isn`t just a card game, it is a people game which happens to be played with cards. The OP question strikes to the heart of that distinction.
If we are asking about any unspecified tourney, it is a maths question. If we are asking about one very singular and special tourney, it is a people question.
It is justifiable to give different answers in the different cases and be "correct" in both, imo.
Bigsmak
Rock Star
Silver Level
I actually said
At this stage I do play different early in a live tourney that I would later on in the same tourney. Early on its about staying in and picking your spots. As the tournament ages I agree that it's all about Chip accumulation.
The ME is so deep stacked with regards to blinds. In my life I will probably play in it less than 5 times, if at all. I would not be wasting the opportunity on a coin flip.
If this was a $10 on-line event I would call instantly. I am bankrolled for that and there will be another one in 20 mins to play.
I still maintain that I will fold. And maybe I am old fashioned, I would still rather get my chips into the pot first and make the other guy make the decision! ...
Bigsmak
Rock Star
Silver Level
Do people here play Tournaments (freezouts) the same as they do Cash games?
I definitely have different styles of play for them. Try to play "By-The-Numbers" for ring games but find myself no-where near that for Tournaments,... Always mixing my play, but will happily lay down hands that I would never when I can just call on my BR to re-buy in a ring!
2 different games in my opinion. Like Rugby League and Rugby Union!
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Agreed. I guess it's more that I brought up the second question as well, say it's a $5 mtt with 6k people (I'm assuming no one here would go crazy over losing $5 and is plenty rolled for it, and if not make it a $1 mtt, basically withing BRM).
So I've asked two questions here, the first one in the OP and this second one. I included "tourneys we're rolled for" in the part you quoted, so I was addressing the 2nd question.
Here's the thing though, I have still yet to see a logical argument why whether another tourney starting in 20 minutes matters in the slightest. Your first point is good, but I think you have general tournament strategy backwards. Early on it's all about chip accumulation while later on it's all about survival, picking good spots against the right stacks (to either try to induce a shove when you have a monster or leverage a fold putting as few chips in the middle as you can with a bad hand), and keeping the chip stack healthy. I just don't buy that the difference in tourneys and cash is that you can rebuy in cash. Whether it's the only tournament in the world you'll ever play or whether there are an infinite amount does not change the best strategy to maximize ev. Obviously in such a big tourney I agree maximizing ev may not be everything, but hopefully you see the point.
This is where I flat out disagree. Actually I think one of the big differences in tourneys is that so many people think like you are here. You have much more fold equity because people are scared, don't make the +ev call because they don't want to risk their tournament life, so it's easier to bluff at the later stages.
The difference between a tourney and ring game has nothing to do with whether you can rebuy or not, it has to do with not all your chips being worth the same. If you're on the bubble with a shortstack sometimes it's good to just fold to the money even if given a 60/40. On the other hand right after the bubble with a shortstack you'd probably be happy to get your money in a 60/40 dog just because doubling your chip stack will more than double your expectation in a tournament.
I guess the biggest reasons I started this thread was because it addresses the issues of what really is different about a tournament and ring. I think people who talk about survival or about how you can just rebuy in ring and can't in a tourney are wrong. This is just my opinion though, so if you disagree please use logic to convince me. I don't play many tournaments, and frankly pretty much hate them (that'll change when I win one though
), so I'm not claiming to be a tournament expert. I just think people take survival/not being able to rebuy as too much of a factor and assume without using any logic that survival is an inherent trait in tournaments that you must value.
F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
The reason there's a difference between tournaments we're rolled for and a $10k buy-in where we got lucky in a satellite is because of utility. If I'm bankrolled for a tournament, this means that the entry fee is not of huge importance to me and by extension, making the money is not of huge importance to me. In a tournament I'm rolled for, the final table is what I'm eyeing, not one-past-the-bubble.
In a 10k event that I paid $20 to get to, however, chances are making it just into the money means a whole lot of money to me. And then it's a matter of utility. Perhaps the minimum payout (12k?) would make such a big difference in my life that I'm not willing to give it up 47% of the time, even if the chance for a huge payday goes up a lot. It's like rejecting a coinflip for $1,000,000 and instead taking $250k cash; makes sense for almost anyone on this planet, but Bill Gates might afford to take the +EV line.
In a 10k event that I paid $20 to get to, however, chances are making it just into the money means a whole lot of money to me. And then it's a matter of utility. Perhaps the minimum payout (12k?) would make such a big difference in my life that I'm not willing to give it up 47% of the time, even if the chance for a huge payday goes up a lot. It's like rejecting a coinflip for $1,000,000 and instead taking $250k cash; makes sense for almost anyone on this planet, but Bill Gates might afford to take the +EV line.
mparker876
Rock Star
Silver Level
Hmmm, I'd have to say instacall. If I won the flip & doubled up I would probably only play premium hands for the rest of the day and try to cruise into day 2 with my big stack intact. If I lost, I'd just go hit the cash tables and try to make my 10k buy-in back (or as much of it as I could).
I understand peoples argument that it's the WSOP ME and nobody wants to go out on the first hand, but I can't see playing scared just because of the larger buy-in/infrequency of the tourney.
I understand peoples argument that it's the WSOP ME and nobody wants to go out on the first hand, but I can't see playing scared just because of the larger buy-in/infrequency of the tourney.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
If you voted to fold here, why did you even bother to look at your cards?
It would be a terrible thing to go broke on the first hand of the ME, granted, but WTF are you doing there? If you just want to be in the midst of that action, get a job there! Be the waitress, or the bus boy for gawds sake.
So, you're there to compete. You're up against somebody who is running in mismatched shoes against you in a very nice set of running shoes. It's a race and he has given you a head start!
It would be a terrible thing to go broke on the first hand of the ME, granted, but WTF are you doing there? If you just want to be in the midst of that action, get a job there! Be the waitress, or the bus boy for gawds sake.
So, you're there to compete. You're up against somebody who is running in mismatched shoes against you in a very nice set of running shoes. It's a race and he has given you a head start!
Bigsmak
Rock Star
Silver Level
Zac - its great to listen to everyone's points of views and I am enjoying this thread.
Personally I play more live tournaments than anything else. I love the local casino. I don't even play on-line that much anymore and I very rarely play the cash game at the casino but I do ok there.
OK - Why do I think Tournaments and Rings are different.
Lets take the OP hand - QQ vs a shown AK.
Ring game - you are a fav (57% - 43% I think?) and If I had that to play this hand over and over again for the rest of time I would love it. You can't lose in the long run.
Tournament - your 57% is just for that one hand. I strongly believe that you can't play the same in this situation. Its a case of all or bust. You win or you completely lose, its your tournament life up for grabs. You don't have the chance to play the hand over and over again to take your odds over time. I play a lot of live Tournaments (not the bigs ones yet.. ) and I would rather win as many pots without going to showdown as I can. I hate the whole luck or odds part of the game. I would rather stare someone in the eyes and make them fold. I just feel that in this situation, the opening hand of a tournament (which i try so hard never to play as people always want to play the first hand... it's a donkfest) - you will have better spots later and you can win the game by playing people, not the cards.
I don't know if this makes sense but why take the risk. There are times and places to do it. But I've said it before, I'd rather get all my chips in and force the decision than have to make one like this.
Personally I play more live tournaments than anything else. I love the local casino. I don't even play on-line that much anymore and I very rarely play the cash game at the casino but I do ok there.
OK - Why do I think Tournaments and Rings are different.
Lets take the OP hand - QQ vs a shown AK.
Ring game - you are a fav (57% - 43% I think?) and If I had that to play this hand over and over again for the rest of time I would love it. You can't lose in the long run.
Tournament - your 57% is just for that one hand. I strongly believe that you can't play the same in this situation. Its a case of all or bust. You win or you completely lose, its your tournament life up for grabs. You don't have the chance to play the hand over and over again to take your odds over time. I play a lot of live Tournaments (not the bigs ones yet.. ) and I would rather win as many pots without going to showdown as I can. I hate the whole luck or odds part of the game. I would rather stare someone in the eyes and make them fold. I just feel that in this situation, the opening hand of a tournament (which i try so hard never to play as people always want to play the first hand... it's a donkfest) - you will have better spots later and you can win the game by playing people, not the cards.
I don't know if this makes sense but why take the risk. There are times and places to do it. But I've said it before, I'd rather get all my chips in and force the decision than have to make one like this.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Quote from Zach;
'Early on it's all about chip accumulation while later on it's all about survival' suggesting someone had it backwards.
While both these factors play in all tourneys, are you going to come right out swinging aggressively in the first hand, or first orbit without any read on either the flow of the table in general, or the people in particular?
There is a period at the very start of tourneys, that is a no mans land. Many folks are feeling lucky, others are impatient, and of course there are the drunks. These are not who I want to be flipping with in the first few orbits. Certainly with speculative cards that we all will play later in the tourney. In your first question you gave specifics that bypass these normal concerns for more respectable players and added in the ME factor.
IMO, under these circimstances, the call is necessary. You have the edge, and isolation and the rest of the world is blocked out from that moment in time. Defining moment for the rest of the tourney.
Caveat is that had villain not shown his cards, I would be less inclined to call this bet here!
'Early on it's all about chip accumulation while later on it's all about survival' suggesting someone had it backwards.
While both these factors play in all tourneys, are you going to come right out swinging aggressively in the first hand, or first orbit without any read on either the flow of the table in general, or the people in particular?
There is a period at the very start of tourneys, that is a no mans land. Many folks are feeling lucky, others are impatient, and of course there are the drunks. These are not who I want to be flipping with in the first few orbits. Certainly with speculative cards that we all will play later in the tourney. In your first question you gave specifics that bypass these normal concerns for more respectable players and added in the ME factor.
IMO, under these circimstances, the call is necessary. You have the edge, and isolation and the rest of the world is blocked out from that moment in time. Defining moment for the rest of the tourney.
Caveat is that had villain not shown his cards, I would be less inclined to call this bet here!
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Well if he is clearly showing the AK and I look down at QQ, I would call, even at the ME. If he just shoved and I look at qq and dont know his cards its a pretty easy fold lol as there is risk of domination.
If you want to win, you need to be willing to gamble. Sure the blinds are low and the structure is sooo good, but the benefit of having a bigger stack early on to bully the noobs and collecting dead money is very nice.
Id go for it, no question really its a matter of do you want to try to win? Do you want the edge for the 1st day? If you are trying to survive who knows, maybe you will go card dead for 8 hours and end up shoving with AQ with 6k left and lose to AK and oh wowz you are out anyway! If you win you have 12k chips, sick life.
The two main factors on this choice is your bankroll, and how willing you are to accumulate chips early on and gamble in marginal situations.
If you want to win, you need to be willing to gamble. Sure the blinds are low and the structure is sooo good, but the benefit of having a bigger stack early on to bully the noobs and collecting dead money is very nice.
Id go for it, no question really its a matter of do you want to try to win? Do you want the edge for the 1st day? If you are trying to survive who knows, maybe you will go card dead for 8 hours and end up shoving with AQ with 6k left and lose to AK and oh wowz you are out anyway! If you win you have 12k chips, sick life.
The two main factors on this choice is your bankroll, and how willing you are to accumulate chips early on and gamble in marginal situations.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
people who say stuff like this seem a bit misguided.
you don't need to have 2,000 BBs to "bully the noobs." in fact, you don't need to have more chips than them. it's really really easy to win pots without showdown against bad tournament players, regardless of stack sizes, on the first day of the main event. this is why good players are able to drop from 20k to 4k and then grind it back up (WITHOUT GOING ALL-IN).
if you go card dead for 8 hours, you don't have to shove 6k with AQ. in fact, you NEVER HAVE TO SHOVE in the opening days of the main event. you will pretty much have >20 BBs for the entire tournament all the way through the bubble and the money and close to the final table if you're decent and don't get coolered/FPSed.
saying "well u can play for 2 days and then bubble because u have to shove 1.5 BBs with 83s, u gotta gamble at some point" need to remember that you can find low variance profitable situations (even in a high variance game such as a tournament) quite easily in a well-structured fishfest like the ME
it's VERY possible, in a tournament such as the main event, to be a force in the tournament without having your tournament life at risk. esp. when you chip up and are able to put people all-in (the ones that think 'well i gotta gamble at some point') with no risk to your tournament life
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Even after the 1st day you can still play solid with 5k-6k chips? I should probably go look at the structure hehe, I know the levels are 1... or 2 hours long but I wasnt aware on how good it actually is...
I dont play live tourneys sooo yeah, I guess im stuck in the mindset of online tourneys. you have little breathing room online, even in the big sunday tourneys if you dont double up in the first 2 hours, you have little hope of cashing even.
I guess the wsop ME is the totally most-awesomewsestest ever, perhaps I wouldnt shove my QQ but I would kick myself a bit for folding I think.
I dont play live tourneys sooo yeah, I guess im stuck in the mindset of online tourneys. you have little breathing room online, even in the big sunday tourneys if you dont double up in the first 2 hours, you have little hope of cashing even.
I guess the wsop ME is the totally most-awesomewsestest ever, perhaps I wouldnt shove my QQ but I would kick myself a bit for folding I think.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Agreed.
This is where I disagree though. It should be mostly about maximizing expectation. Obviously it hinges on whether you can afford it, but if there's a situation where I can afford, I'll take the +ev situation every time. If someone walked up to me right now in the hallway, said "let's get an rng and generate a random number between 1 and 100. If it's 1-51 I'll pay you $20, if it's 52-100 you pay me $20", I'd do it in a heartbeat. If someone did that with $10k I would not. I think that's the difference imo, not whether you can do it again and again and again.
Also, when discussing which scenarios could happen again and again or not note that early situations are easier to take again and again than later. If you buy in for $20 and get deep there comes a point when the difference in ev of a flip is hundreds if not thousands of dollars. That's something that won't happen again. If you play tourneys regularly you will have that situation a few more times most likely.