Gamblers Anonymous spoke today

[engman]

I probably would have been mad like you if somebody said that, especially since he did not have much experience playing it. At the end of the day, poker is gambling but I think it is also the best option because I believe you have the most control over what happens compared to anything else. (Especially if you know what you are doing). Now if you don't, than it's no different.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

So, he is mistaken about poker. I imagine for the most part his advice is good.

The interesting question now is: Why are so many here defensive?

 

[Poker Orifice]

So, he is mistaken about poker. I imagine for the most part his advice is good.

The interesting question now is: Why are so many here defensive?

I concur!

Also, I find it amusing to hear the comments about 12-step programs (which you obviously know nothing about from reading your comments) & yet you're dissing someone on their lack of experience with poker.
Bottom line (imo) if a person has a propensity towards addition then poker can definitely be something they would want to tread lightly on. I'm in no way suggesting that poker is purely gambling but for sure it could be highly addictive to an addict & could also lead to gambling (as I've witnessed it happen to many, many people... & I'm older than 17-18 sitting in a classroom so I think I might have a teeny bit of experience).

I also don't doubt the speaker's experience with the poker pros he's met. No doubt alot of them are degens. & alot are broke inspite of all the big wins. One thing I tend to notice amongst the ones that I've come in contact with, they have some huge similiarities to addicts with other addictions.. in a big way (one, alot of them seem pretty f'd up, emotionally immature, egotistical with an inferiority complex & spiritually bankrupt... by no means 'all' of them... just 'alot' of the ones I've met personally).

 

[Poker Orifice]

As far as folks thinking of poker as only a game of luck... I don't pay them any attention at all. I have family members who seem all interested, ask questions & supposedly listen to answers, etc. but then are convinced it's all luck/gambling, etc. Who cares? Who cares what they think? They obviously don't know much about the game... so what? Trying to convince them or to argue a point is a waste of time & to do so is about as naive as thinking the game is all luck.

 

[SYWTWAF]

I wouldn't care as much if general (non-poker playing) public perception of the game didn't have so much power to delegitimize it. Poker's shaky legal status (e.g. in the US) is largely due to its being lumped together with other casino games.

On a more personal level, I think it's understandably frustrating when someone puts down something you're sincerely passionate about (could be anything; a hobby, an artist, an ideology) in spite of them having (what you believe to be) only a limited understanding of that thing. It's not so much that you want to change their mind, but inside you feel a bit aggravated.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Two things:

People with a gambling problem should not play poker. While it's possible to play poker as an intellectual game, it's also possible to play it as a pure gamble, and therefore problem gamblers should not play it.

Good poker players should not try to convince the general public that poker is more skills than luck. The fact most people consider it as a form of gambling is what brings the fishes to the tables are makes it a profitable hobby for us. If everyone starts considering that it's a game of skills somewhat akin to chess, the game is dead.

 

[bobsay225]

As a person who has been to different groups of twelve step programs there was something that was told to me "if it dont apply let it fly". As the speaker of the meeting he spoke out of term by making statements about degenerates and bums and about poker and various games. It would be like me being a speaker at a narcotics anonymous meeting and talking bad about drunks and telling "war stories" things like how to cook coke and dope.

As a clean addict I have to be vigillient all the time but I am not spending all of my money on full tilt with the rent money or going to the bookie and betting what i dont have I will say this I have a problem with cashgames to wit RUSH its like poker crack to me and I am fearing a relapse for take two

 

[DetroitJimmy]

Two things:

People with a gambling problem should not play poker. While it's possible to play poker as an intellectual game, it's also possible to play it as a pure gamble, and therefore problem gamblers should not play it.

Good poker players should not try to convince the general public that poker is more skills than luck. The fact most people consider it as a form of gambling is what brings the fishes to the tables are makes it a profitable hobby for us. If everyone starts considering that it's a game of skills somewhat akin to chess, the game is dead.

^^^^^ +1

Very good point of view. It would suck if poker was known as a game of skill. You can actually gamble just as much at chess or backgammon than you can at poker. It's just people are smart enough to realize these are games of skill and don't attract very many novices. As soon as Full Tilt Academy becomes a real academy, the casual player is less likely to join in(which sucks for us).

The sad truth is poker kinda needs to be lumped in with casino/lottery type games for it to be profitable for a skilled player. On the other hand it don't help to use that line when you are American trying to get rid of negative stigma of poker. Catch 22 if I have ever seen one.

 

[turtelliusshellius]

I love the crutch of the modern human. People love to blame their problems on things they choose to do today. It was the cocaine, or the poker, or the sex with random women that made their lives so bad. You know what, I used to have a cocaine addiction, and it didn't make my life bad. My stupid decisions made my life bad. The cocaine did not wake me up in the middle of the night and say "snort me, smoke me, shoot me" it just sat there while I chose to make the decision to use it. A person can talk about something being the root of all evil, but any person who has dealt with addiction and not beat it with "God's help" or "through 'anonymous' meetings" will tell you that the true root of all evil is human greed and lack of self control. People don't "become" addicts, they choose to be and the fact that he came to your school and said all of that just perpetuates the cycle of addiction because it gives all of your fellow students a crutch to blame their future problems on instead of facing the fact that we make our own decisions in life. I think talks like that are pointless and more harmful than good. That's just the opinion of a straight edge poker player with newly found self control though/

 

[c9h13no3]

Taking calculated financial risks all the time desensitizes you to the thrill and allure of wagering money on unequivocally -EV situations, even if it's dressed up in bells, whistles, and pretty, flashing lights.

Well said.

Two things:

People with a gambling problem should not play poker. While it's possible to play poker as an intellectual game, it's also possible to play it as a pure gamble, and therefore problem gamblers should not play it.

Good poker players should not try to convince the general public that poker is more skills than luck. The fact most people consider it as a form of gambling is what brings the fishes to the tables are makes it a profitable hobby for us. If everyone starts considering that it's a game of skills somewhat akin to chess, the game is dead.

Also well said.

K, now I don't have to post here.

 

[Potheadwoman]

To be quite frank you should be more disappointed that your school wasted its time and money to have a gambling addict speak at your school. And as soon as you get to college you will realize there is almost no point in trying to discuss or argue in a fair manner with a lecturer.

The fact that this guy would refer to pro poker players as degenerates is laughable because he himself obviously was a bigger degenerate because he played a game of luck with a mathematical probability against him. It also sounds like he was to stupid or lazy to transition his gambling thrill from a game of huge wins and bigger losses into a game that plays more into the law of averages. It never dawned on him that over time everyone gets the same cards the exact amount of times as anyone else much like a coin flip. However the difference is poker has no house but a fee. So the way we play our cards, use our math, and take advantage of a players flaw overtime produces an edge in the long run against our opponents. Poker is a game where you have an absurd amount of variables that can be adapted to in every situation. blackjack is a simple game where you can only minimize your loss in the long run.

So when you run into someone like this in the future dont bother. This guy obviously has a problem with his personality and is not worth debating. Not only does he have that problem but also has the problem of identifying ability over luck. Which comes full circle back to his personality.

To wrap this up your school could have had a recovering drug addict in your school because that problem is way more prevailing than a gambling problem. So dont sweat it. Just remember you play poker because you like earning money not losing it.

 

[arahel_jazz]

. If everyone starts considering that it's a game of skills somewhat akin to chess, the game is dead.

Ah, but Chess is not a "game" according to game-theorists. Chess is mathematically solvable for any given move of an opponent. This has been proven. Poker, on the other hand, is a game because there is an element of uncertainty that cannot be resolved by any means. i.e. You just don't know how your opponent will play the two cards they were delt.


To the OP: One of the great things about being in school is the ability for you to be exposed to many different and sometimes opposing viewpoints. The key take-away here is to discern your own opinions and views independently of what any professor, textbook, preacher, or reformed degenerate gambler may tell you.

You are on the right track. Keep up the good work and stay in school!

 

[fletchdad]

When I was in school, a police officer came by to lecture on the dangers of drug use. He had a stick of incense that was supposed to smell like pot. It must have been made of pot, cause it smelled sooooooo good. lol

It was telling, since the stick was already lit before any kids came in, how many kids had that look of pleasant surprise on their face when the came in, giving other kids that knowing look. A large amount of kids, considering it was 9th grade.

I think the whole thing was a waste of school money. if any was spent. A waste of time in any case. The smokers in class had a quiet laugh at schools expense - they were already smoking, and "knew it all" already - and the non smokers were either the converted being preached to, or they were more impressed by the sarcastic looks and chuckles from their peers then they were from a stranger in a uniform. His delivery was cold and static and boring. He did not seem to be reaching anyone in the class. His message was lost in the delivery. A little thought in advance about the age group and who can best relate to this age group and class of children did not seem to have been made.

There are unfortunately bureaucrats making decisions that make no sense at all regularly in all walks of life, and being now a father - 8 and 19 years old - I am sometimes shocked at the stupid decisions schools (among others) make. It sometimes seems as if they have no idea at all how to reach children, and they are the supposed "experts", at least in terms of experience in dealing with youth.

But to OP, and back on topic, a number of good comments have been made ITT. Any 12 step program dealing with addictions is made up of people. And they will have their flaws, as people will. It is unfortunate that you had such an idiot who believes that his own weaknesses are due to the nature of the game and not his own lack of self control. Of all the people who ---------- (fill in the blank with "drink" or "get high" or "work the odds to win money" or whatever you want) many if not most do not destroy their lives. Sadly some do, and making these people aware of danger signals can occasionally help avert disaster, although in many cases the signals will be ignored anyway. But the right message delivered in the right way can be so critical to someone who has not yet lost control, or even perhaps yet begun to abuse. So people who turn their audiences off to the message they are supposed to deliver can sometime cause more "damage" than had they simply not spoken in the first place.


Edit: I made some comments about schools, but there are also many cases where very good decisions are made, and projects are started that are totally well planned and thought out, so I am not getting down on everything schools do, just to clear that up. Some schools today have become quite sensitive to their students, sadly many still have not.

 

[Poker Orifice]

I love the crutch of the modern human. People love to blame their problems on things they choose to do today. It was the cocaine, or the poker, or the sex with random women that made their lives so bad. You know what, I used to have a cocaine addiction, and it didn't make my life bad. My stupid decisions made my life bad. The cocaine did not wake me up in the middle of the night and say "snort me, smoke me, shoot me" it just sat there while I chose to make the decision to use it. A person can talk about something being the root of all evil, but any person who has dealt with addiction and not beat it with "God's help" or "through 'anonymous' meetings" will tell you that the true root of all evil is human greed and lack of self control. People don't "become" addicts, they choose to be and the fact that he came to your school and said all of that just perpetuates the cycle of addiction because it gives all of your fellow students a crutch to blame their future problems on instead of facing the fact that we make our own decisions in life. I think talks like that are pointless and more harmful than good. That's just the opinion of a straight edge poker player with newly found self control though/

^ Sounds like 'denial' to me (don't even notice I am lying)

 

[Tom1559]

The bit that is missing from his arguement is that there are millions of people who are able to gamble without becoming addicted. The problem with addicts is that they have zero tolerance and they sometimes asume that everyone else is the same. One of the lessons I learned from an early age was "everything in moderation". I doubt that you could ever convince the guy of any arguement which included gambling in any form but that is because of his problems and not yours.

 

[Swear Engine]

Can i come to your school and ram my opinions down your throats? Or do i need to be addicted to something first.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

This thread is full of colorful ad hominem, but seriously.. so what? The guy is probably mistaken about some of his opinions on the game. Whee.

On the other hand addictions are at least somewhat subjective.

Overall someone advocating to school kids to avoid drugs and gambling is giving +EV advice whether or not he is right in everything he says.

Belgo makes a great point. The more people who don't "get it" the better!

Once again I ask... Check yourself if this really bugs you. Why does it?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Overall someone advocating to school kids to avoid drugs and gambling is giving +EV advice whether or not he is right in everything he says.

Children need to be educated not brain washed.

Children will believe everything you tell them until new information arises.

So if you distort the truth, they will believe it until they get out into the real world and realise they have been lied to.

At that point they are no longer sure of what is true and what isnt, but they know they cant ask the "establishment" because the establishment has lied to them.

Society has a duty to prepare children for adult life and they are not prepared if they have been openly lied to.

The problem with these kind of talks is they are usually far to one sided.

 

[DetroitJimmy]

^^^Well said.

 

[takethepain]

Poker is a game of gambling for those who want it to be, and a game of positive long-term variance for those who want it to be.

If you are addicted to gambling then poker is probably not a good thing to get hooked too.

Having said that, since taking up Poker I can't bring myself to play games like slots or roulette simply because I know the odds are against me.

 

[SYWTWAF]

To those who thought some of us in this thread were unreasonable in how bothered we felt about other people's conflating poker with fixed-odds gambling games, this would be why.

Some detailed info on the indictment of "The Poker Companies".

Sickens me how often and how presumptuously they invoke the term "gambling" throughout that document.

 

[Leatherass]

maybe you should listen to your elders ...just because something doesnt apply to you doesnt mean it wont apply to the majority of people.

if you cant listen to others point of view without getting defensive you cant be rational or objective.

I can't comprehend why we would listen to people who are lying just because they are old.

The point is that the man in this story should educate himself before he goes around "educating" people about something he doesn't have any clue about.

 

[Leatherass]

I don't know how to put this, but I do think a lot of older poker pros are pretty degenerate. We are kind of in a new era of poker where people grind tons of hands, are aware of BRM, and make it profitable. If you look back, a lot of poker pros stories are pretty ugly and could of ended very poorly.

This is arguably the best post in this thread imo. Unfortunately we have a bunch of old ignorant lawmakers who can't get the image of these types of people out of their heads. Poker has evolved to become something that should actually be respected more along the lines of a chess player, but good luck convincing these elderly law makers of this.

 

[Nexus6]

Short term yes poker is gambling...

Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Typically, the outcome of the wager is evident within a short period.

Lets change that short period and look at over time. If you look at it over time... Poker is still gambling for 95% of the players out there. Over time 95% of people out there will not be winning poker players and thier profitability will be dependent on luck (might be a little high but you get the point). There is a skill to poker that 70% dont know or vaugly know exist, 25% (or less) want to achieve this skill, and 5% try to hold on to this skill.

For an addict he is not able to control himself as he is addicted to the high, so he not is able to control his outcome over time. For him poker is always gambleing and is reliant on chance.

For someone like this it is easier to blame the game than admit that there are others who can control themselves. For most people having a glass of wine at dinner is not really drinking but to an alcoholic who cant control himself a glass turns into a bottle cause he cant control himself. So a glass of wine is drinking to him. (I could try to make the argument for addiction to cigaretts and "illegal drugs" but it could be taking it a little too far for this rant

I think as a poker player you should just recognize that some people lose controll and that you should just keep poker in the right ballance in your life (whatever amount that is). As long as you stay in control and keep that control then you should be fine.

If poker is gambling then what else is gambling? Stock Market... There is an uncertian outcome with every stock/mutual fund you purchase (yes you can minimize your risk and make what you percieve as EV+ bets). When I was getting my fianance degree we talked about things like this a few times.. http://www.automaticfinances.com/monkey-stock-picking/ If a monkey or randomness out perform the pros 39% and this is OVER TIME that is scary... There are other cases where the monkeys out perform the S&P or almost all mutual funds ect for a given year but with a spread of 100 cases and 14 years I think this gives a more reliable set of data (although it is from the WSJ). I think that there are a lot of similarities to investing and poker (also a lot of differences) and how they relate to gambling. More or less you take educated risks.

You should ask the guy if he thinks investing is a form of gambling too because the outcome is uncertain? Still should not stop you from doing what you want to.

Anyway sorry for the rant... I think if you are asking these questions and keep things in ballance you are fine.

So does this mean poker is gambling because a large percent of players don't have the skill to do well in the long run. I like what your saying here.

I will also say i think people that have the skill still find it hard not to gamble in the long run. This reminds me of the marijuana thing. I had to stop because I finally payed attention to myself and realized I want to smoke way to much and I get lazy and don't produce like i usually do when I don't smoke. I DIDN'T HAVE IT INSIDE ME TO PACE MY SMOKING AND it took forever for me to stop. Poker seems to be the same way for many people. I understand now why we have die hard advocates for online poker that are obsessed with it and can't slow down. and more importantly can't play without turning poker into a gamble from time to time.

 

[Chiefer]

This is arguably the best post in this thread imo. Unfortunately we have a bunch of old ignorant lawmakers who can't get the image of these types of people out of their heads. Poker has evolved to become something that should actually be respected more along the lines of a chess player, but good luck convincing these elderly law makers of this.

So True! Now it's our job to get all those elderly lawmakers out of office.