Difference Between Cash Grinders and Tournament Grinders?

[Rational Madman]

Yes and most of us here believe you are wrong. Which is fine. The entire purpose of this forum is for us to exchange our thoughts and try to convince each other as to why we are right.

So I am entitled to the opinion that not everyone is entitled to their opinion?

 

[Jblocher1]

So I am entitled to the opinion that not everyone is entitled to their opinion?

There's really no such thing as not being entitled to an opinion. Nobody can regulate your thoughts for you

 

[Rational Madman]

There's really no such thing as not being entitled to an opinion. Nobody can regulate your thoughts for you

So your theory that everyone is entitled to their opinion ensures that people like me are entitled to not believe that all are entitled to their opinion.

 

[Jblocher1]

So your theory that everyone is entitled to their opinion ensures that people like me are entitled to not believe that all are entitled to their opinion.

Absolutely

 

[Rational Madman]

Absolutely

That's pretty self defeatist of an outlook then.

 

[Jblocher1]

That's pretty self defeatist of an outlook then.

You are allowed to think quite literally anything. That's all there is to it

 

[Rational Madman]

You are allowed to think quite literally anything. That's all there is to it

I can't think that ****ing children is okay. I can't think that the queen should be over thrown or that ISIS is the good guy. These three things can get me a life sentence if not death penalty depending on the mood of the judge. Those are just three things there's many more.

 

[Rational Madman]

I can't think that ****ing children is okay. I can't think that the queen should be over thrown or that ISIS is the good guy. These three things can get me a life sentence if not death penalty depending on the mood of the judge. Those are just three things there's many more.

I know UK has no dp but that doesn't apply to terrorism

 

[Jblocher1]

I can't think that ****ing children is okay. I can't think that the queen should be over thrown or that ISIS is the good guy. These three things can get me a life sentence if not death penalty depending on the mood of the judge. Those are just three things there's many more.

You are allowed to think any of those things. Nobody but you can regulate your own thoughts. Your actions are obviously very strictly regulated

 

[Rational Madman]

You are allowed to think any of those things. Nobody but you can regulate your own thoughts. Your actions are obviously very strictly regulated

Lol, if you are not allowed to express a thought then you only suffer by thinking it.

 

[Jblocher1]

Lol, if you are not allowed to express a thought then you only suffer by thinking it.

Well I think that's a matter of opinion [emoji23]

 

[BuzzKillington]

No. It's not right. You are not entitled to say tournament poker is better or even equal to cash game poker it is like saying horse race Ng is equal to rooster fighting (the c word is banned in this site) with horse racing you can bet multiple horses with educated stats of past races to spread your bets. With rooster fighting you cannot in any way judge which will win unless somehow one rooster killed three or more.

I don't know if tournament poker is really comparable to rooster fighting. I mean, even if you don't know anything about anyone, you still have access to the cold hand statistics. You still have bad calls in tournament poker, for example.

 

[Rational Madman]

I don't know if tournament poker is really comparable to rooster fighting. I mean, even if you don't know anything about anyone, you still have access to the cold hand statistics. You still have bad calls in tournament poker, for example.

Actually there's ANOTHER aspect to tournament poker which I didn't want to bring up as it's sort of a low blow but since you bring up bad calls etc I'll explain why again it's much more luck based in tournaments.

Simply this: If you realize everyone else on your table is as good or good enough to not be exploitable you can up and leave to the other available cash game tables. Tournament poker can just as easily pit you against sharks as fish and/or donks. You can't use your ability to judge people to your advantgae unless you happen to be vs the fish. Even more unfair is that if you're in an MTT where there ARE fish and donks around but you happen to be put on tables most of the MTT vs non-fish and non-donks, then people equally good to you or barely less good than you end up with much huger stacks than you to dominate you mid-game and you don't get ITM purely because they had easier opponents for the early-game.

 

[AviCKter]

Just to lighten up the mood.

Nightbot: Yes, Spraggy is still doing the bankroll challenge. Started with $100 playing 5NL Cash about 20 months ago. When BR was $1.2k, I shipped the $7.50 PKO for around $2k. Since then I have been playing MTTs only.

:2in1:

 

[darthdimsky]

Actually there's ANOTHER aspect to tournament poker which I didn't want to bring up as it's sort of a low blow but since you bring up bad calls etc I'll explain why again it's much more luck based in tournaments.

Simply this: If you realize everyone else on your table is as good or good enough to not be exploitable you can up and leave to the other available cash game tables. Tournament poker can just as easily pit you against sharks as fish and/or donks. You can't use your ability to judge people to your advantgae unless you happen to be vs the fish. Even more unfair is that if you're in an MTT where there ARE fish and donks around but you happen to be put on tables most of the MTT vs non-fish and non-donks, then people equally good to you or barely less good than you end up with much huger stacks than you to dominate you mid-game and you don't get ITM purely because they had easier opponents for the early-game.

RM, what you're describing is the dream of good MTT players. To have a donk chip leader @ your table. In a few occassions, I've had one of these people quadruple my stack in the first few hands they're at the table. One MTT last week a huge stack entered our table and got wiped out in 3 hands because he was attempting to bully the entire table with marginal hands and severely OOP. Our table was tough and he just waded in thinking he could donk and bully his way through our table. Huge mistake!

What I don' get is how you missed that EV calculations in a full ring MTT vs a full ring CG should be the consistent. The biggest difference that guides MTT play is the effective stack. But if you were to make +EV plays regularly enough the math should favour positive ROIs in the long term.

 

[Rational Madman]

RM, what you're describing is the dream of good MTT players. To have a donk chip leader @ your table. In a few occassions, I've had one of these people quadruple my stack in the first few hands they're at the table. One MTT last week a huge stack entered our table and got wiped out in 3 hands because he was attempting to bully the entire table with marginal hands and severely OOP. Our table was tough and he just waded in thinking he could donk and bully his way through our table. Huge mistake!

What I don' get is how you missed that EV calculations in a full ring MTT vs a full ring CG should be the consistent. The biggest difference that guides MTT play is the effective stack. But if you were to make +EV plays regularly enough the math should favour positive ROIs in the long term.

To be clear I said first problem is a player equally good to you (not a donk) to have much huger stack than you by mid-game due to softer earlygame tables.

Anyway, in cash game there is a concept in calculations called 'I can afford to lose this as I can top up stack and play well enough to win more later' when making a tough call. In tournaments that call can weaken you so brutally.

 

[darthdimsky]

To be clear I said first problem is a player equally good to you (not a donk) to have much huger stack than you by mid-game due to softer earlygame tables.

Yep. Just re-read. But you have just the same chance of that happening to you as well. Besides, being grouped in a table with tough players will just mean surving for as long as you can till you switch tables, which will eventually happen. No biggie.

Anyway, in cash game there is a concept in calculations called 'I can afford to lose this as I can top up stack and play well enough to win more later' when making a tough call. In tournaments that call can weaken you so brutally.

True, which places a greater emphasis making the right decisions at the right spots and playing with selective aggression. Yes at times flips in your favour don't work out but those are the same odds you face in CG. The math eventually works in your favour.

 

[Rational Madman]

Yep. Just re-read. But you have just the same chance of that happening to you as well. Besides, being grouped in a table with tough players will just mean surving for as long as you can till you switch tables, which will eventually happen. No biggie.



True, which places a greater emphasis making the right decisions at the right spots and playing with selective aggression. Yes at times flips in your favour don't work out but those are the same odds you face in CG. The math eventually works in your favour.

That coinflip can make all your work up to that point in a long MTT which demanded all your attention amount either to nothing or basically a tiny portion of what you could have made while grinding cash games in that time (since multi-tabling MTTs can lead to you making quite bad decisions especially if we are talking more than 3 tables). So all the work you have put in intellectually and emotionally up to that point can all result in nothing... Why the hell would you even WANT TO GRIND THIS WAY??????????

I totally get thrillseeking fish preferring MTT as a RECREATIONAL gambling ACTIVITY hell I totally get playing roulette or betting on tortoise racing for a thrill but FOR GRINDING AN ACTUAL PROFIT AS A PRO you are telling me that MTT is worth it?

Look, I love pokerstars and adore all the work Negreanu has put into expanding poker and the brand of pokerstars but the guy has an issue that he prefers MTT to cash games, it's a silly mentality to have why on Earth such people can think this way?!!

 

[ovitoo]

Dude, aren't you only playing like play money and 2nl? I swear you said that to me last week. You realize there are MTT/STT players who make a living. I think most professionals play both cash and tournaments. The only point that you've redundantly made is that variance is higher in MTT's, which is common knowledge. There is still always a +ev or -ev decision to be made.

It's as if you're trying trying to draw a line in the sand for everyone. Like you're at a party and you're saying beer drinkers on this side, liquor drinkers over there. And everyone is just like 'nah man, I kinda wanna take a shot' or 'I gotta slow down and just have a beer'. It doesn't matter though cuz in the end we're all drunk and enjoying ourselves.

As for your "I'm not free to think [insert disturbing thought here]" comment; You have 100% freedom to think whatever you want. There's no thought police. It's actions that will get you in trouble.

 

[darthdimsky]

That coinflip can make all your work up to that point in a long MTT which demanded all your attention amount either to nothing or basically a tiny portion of what you could have made while grinding cash games in that time (since multi-tabling MTTs can lead to you making quite bad decisions especially if we are talking more than 3 tables). So all the work you have put in intellectually and emotionally up to that point can all result in nothing... Why the hell would you even WANT TO GRIND THIS WAY??????????

Not one bit. I've multi tabled 7 (using my keypad mind you and only my lap screen). I imagine more easily with a mouse and multi monitors. Plus I play mostly full ring. It's actually boring at times to MTT 4 tables. How?! As with anything else, practice. And yes, optimal decisions too.

If you play MTTs long enough you brush off bad beats easy. You were there on the CC table when I got my As sucked out on. No thread or whiny bad beat stories from me. Posted another one of those in my league thread yesterday and just had As sucked out on by 67s today. When you have so many flips go the other way you get used to it. I used to tilt so hard when it happened but now it's no big deal and that's useful when you multi table (cash or MTT) because if affects your other sessions if you don't (still happens from time to time though).

I choose to grind this way because if I make deep runs I make good money. I make deep runs when I make the correct decision consistently. And if you make them consistently enough you have greater odds of running deep.

I totally get thrillseeking fish preferring MTT as a RECREATIONAL GAMBLING ACTIVITY hell I totally get playing roulette or betting on tortoise racing for a thrill but FOR GRINDING AN ACTUAL PROFIT AS A PRO you are telling me that MTT is worth it?

Look, I love pokerstars and adore all the work Negreanu has put into expanding poker and the brand of pokerstars but the guy has an issue that he prefers MTT to cash games, it's a silly mentality to have why on Earth such people can think this way?!!

It's anything but thrill seeking. It's boring as hell and it's takes a huge toll mentally when you're running bad. Makes you question your worth as a poker player. If anything it's like a marathon. One long endurance race. That's how an MTT grinder like me looks at an MTT. You've got to have great endurance, patience and resilience to profit from MTTs.

Negreanu is the winningest live MTT player in the world. When you have guys like him, Eric Seidel, Fedor Holz, Dan Colman, Jason Mercier and many more do consistently well in MTTs you know they are doing something right. When you have players hire coaches for the wsop Main Event Final table you know they are preparing a solid game plan keeping in mind who their opponents are and play style are.

 

[Gulas]

I'm little off from CC drama. I was a little bit surprised that Madman was banned. Another side of me wasn't so surprised.

This post shows why he was banned. And the staff probably had other good reasons too.

LUL

 

[vpashuta]

You're an angry elf- you must be from the South Pole

 

[Polytarp]

To constructively answer the question in your title (I read your rant but all your arguments aren't worth responding to because they are baseless), cash game players are less likely to be or become degenerate problem gamblers I think. The very nature of MTT's is so adrenaline dependent that I think it takes a toll mentally on MTT regs. I'm not referring to fatigue because I know cash game players experience fatigue all the same, but MTT's can really desensitize you to money. You can play fantastically but at the end of the day you might take a coin flip for 5 figures of equity, and you might be completely correct to do so, but what happens in your head when you lose that flip? It can get really exhausting and cash game players will never experience losing a flip for 100BI's of equity most likely.

Again they are very different games and they shouldn't be compared for purposes of saying one is easier than the other

I like your explanation because I have experienced what you describe. I find tournaments to be easier because there seems to be room for more creativity and you need to constantly adapt. When I play cash games it's like I can't swim -- are online cash games more formulaic?When tired, I get desensitized to the value of money but worse, I get desensitized to the risks I'm taking. At times, I have taken a gamble when I was tired because I felt it was the right thing to do intuitively whereas I would normally be able to clearly justify a move. I have lost and won large amounts doing this and the loss or gain I obtained didn't really affect me. In live games, if the table I'm at is weak then I won't leave until I have done my best to hoover as much as possible. If it's an average one then I stop.

 

[MarineCJ]

WOW what an angry ass. First negative post I found on here. SO you like Cash games so what? Other people like Tournaments. Neither is right or wrong, just preference that each person is able to choose. I personally enjoy and doing ok in booth. Does that make me half wrong?

Stop trying to belittle people playing a style you probably suck at and why that IDIOTIC rant.