jimboliah
Enthusiast
Silver Level
- Status
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Musta been a sick hourly. You probably played 2-3 hours for that cent right? $.005/hour? There are kids in sweatshops in third-world countries saying... "Geez even I make more than that".
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
I've decided what I'm doing with my winnings, Zach. Going to ship you the penny to make up for getting the better half of the chop after that nasty suckout https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-goals-challenges-wins-46/ugh-chasing-donk-135823/
C
cAPSLOCK
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
That thread is making me giggle.
I feel bad for all the <100 posters giving advice to Zach
Oooh. I didn't realize I had missed a chance to "give advice"!!!
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/pok...-46/ugh-chasing-donk-135823/post-1016879.html
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
the sunday million final 3 was supposedly the lolz last night. The chip leader had >1/2 the chips, and was a losing micro micro stakes player ($4 abi) who sattied in cheap, and he offered a chop of 100k each to the final 3 even though he had >1/2 the chips and play for 60k or something like. Whats even better than that, is the fact that the shortstack with <1/6th of the chips in play declined and wanted a chip chop instead
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
Haha. I forget, does this get replayed?
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
LOL wtf at both of them. Do they hate money?
That said, a chip chop favors the shortstack over actually playing it out, but obviously an even chop favors the shortstack even more lol.
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
?? im not 100% sure, but im farily confident that chip chops are in MASSIVE favour of the big stacks and shit all over the shortstack. Basically if you want to chop and your a big stack you take a chip chop, if your a shortstack you decline and play on
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Wait you're right, had it backward. Basically a good proof is say big stack has 99% of chips in play he'll likely be awarded more than the first place money, which is obviously too much lol. Not sure if there are other amounts where a chip chop actually favors the short stack, but I do know most of the time ICM is better for short stack than the chip chop. I know in the WCOOP ME there was a deal where the short stack (hoosier) got more money because of who he was, when in reality he didn't gain that much equity and although all the money came from 1st place he was still getting over his fair share. The real person who lost in that deal was 2nd to last who didn't get any extra from the chip chop and I think was screwed out of several thousand if not tens of thousands of dollars in equity because of the chop.
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
I thought the minimum was last place (of those left) money and the max was first (after removing the 2 % or w/e) so if someone had 99% of the chips the chop would basically be first place money and an even split of the rest for the others. I'll have to watch a chop go down to see what formula they use.
tenbob
Legend
Silver Level
That thread is making me giggle.
I feel bad for all the <100 posters giving advice to Zach
Why ? do you know them or something ?
eNTy
Legend
Silver Level
No they just don't know Zach so it looks silly giving hand analysis and advice on a joke hand..
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Well the point is that it's possible to get more. In any scale where that's possible, even if you don't get that much, it's not going to be fair. I'll quick do a made-up scenario.
5 people left, stacks are:
55%
25%
10%
5%
5%
And I'll use the Sunday Million structure from yesterday for payouts:
12.3%
8.33%
5.6%
4.6%
3.6%
Now convert these to percentage of prize pool left. 34.43% is left, so in percentage of prize pool left prizes are:
35.7%
24.2%
16.3%
13.4%
10.4%
Notice that even if the big stack only had 35.7% of the chips in play he would still win the equivalent of the first place prize money. In face ICM-wise he's an underdog to win the tourney (not to anyone, but <50%), yet he's awarded the equivalent of being 100% to win the tourney.
Now I'll run an ICM. This comes up first in google search: http://www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php
Even with 55% of the chips in play he should receive 29.26% of the prize pool. Here's what it comes up with:
29.26%
23.51%
17.82%
14.71%
14.71%
So a chip chop would have screwed the short stack by awarding them almost 3x times less than they deserved (after the free money earned by everyone was distributed). Meanwhile the big stack would have gotten more than the 1st place money.
imo the default chip chop should be icm because that is the equity-adjusted money equivalently skilled players should receive based on the payout structure. The current structure doesn't differentiate between a structure where 1st place gets 100% and 1st place gets only a dollar more than 2nd place. That doesn't make any sense.
S
switch0723
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
I'm going to watch some replays to see what numbers they come up with and figure backwards. Maybe they do use ICM but adjusted to fit between top and bottom prizes, but I suspect its a simpler distribution between the two.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Oh crap I messed up. But basically here's how they do it.
Say there are 5 people left. Give everyone the 5th place money (this is what I neglected to do, which would explain the mistake but wouldn't make a huge difference) and then use the chip fractions to distribute the rest. So in this example everyone gets 10.4% so there's now 48% to be distributed. Actually I didn't mess up too madly. Just add 10.4 to everyone's total and you get a total. You'd have to re-normalize it to get percentage:
65.4%
35.4%
20.4%
15.4%
15.4%
Total is 152, normalized values (what would be given out) are:
43%
23.3%
13.4%
10.1%
10.1%
Still more than max for first (although most of the time I guess 1st has <50% left and could have less) and far skewed from the ICM values. Short stacks are shorted over 4%, 3rd is shorted a bit, 2nd is actually just about on target, but 1st is given way too much.
Dwilius
CardsChat Regular
Silver Level
Alright, I understand what you mean now, but not following your math. So its 10.4 to each plus a straight chip chop of the rest so first would get .55*48=26.4+10.4=36.8 which is more than the 35.7 first place money. Ok, I didn't think they would allow that but I have little clue.
That would be
36.8
22.4
15.2
12.8
12.8
which isn't too far from the ICM, but still significantly too much for first...and worst for the shortstacks. Alright I just watched one, and of course you're right, straight chop after the minimum.
That would be
36.8
22.4
15.2
12.8
12.8
which isn't too far from the ICM, but still significantly too much for first...and worst for the shortstacks. Alright I just watched one, and of course you're right, straight chop after the minimum.
Last edited:
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
hmm I thought my math was the same as yours but yours is simpler and correct and we get different numbers so I'm trusting yours. Kinda confused though because I would think what I did should do the exact same thing. Oh nvm I see now. I added 10.4 but it wasn't 10.4% because it added up to 152 ldo. Your math's right mine's wrong and you're right it's closer but ICM is still more exact.
- Status