Book Review and Study Group Discussion: Crushing the Microstakes

[Tino11]

The book is on my 'to read' list, but from what I have read so far, that should be sooner rather than later. I have already been looking at his blog [recommended by a mate] and have been impressed.
A study group of some shape or form sounds ideal, the timing will be the hard part as I try to have a life away from poker as well

 

[Debi]

Yeah I'd like to have at least some part of it be forum based just because more poker content is a good thing for CC.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Yeah I'd like to have at least some part of it be forum based just because more poker content is a good thing for CC.

Hopefully there is at least some portion of this here. I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to tech. I've never used skype/teamviewer or any of that type of stuff, and I have no real interest in learning tbh. Lately, I have been thinking about how much my lack of embracing things like that is hindering my poker development, but that is a topic for another thread......

Anyway, I hope things go well whatever the chosen medium. If it's here, or portions of it are here, I'll be taking part. If not, that's fine too, as I'm sure some of it is likely to filter-over to the forums anyway.

 

[Nathan Williams]

Having it here on CC is totally fine with me too. http://www.blackrain79.com/p/book.html

 

[Big_Rudy]

Just wondered what's going on with this. I finally got the book today, and am about 1/3 of the way through the initial "quick read" of it. I'll be reading/studying the entire thing in more detail obviously after I finish the first read-through. Seems pretty good so far.

Are we still set for getting the study group going on or about the 1st of March? Format? Anything? Anybody?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Yeah, let's plan for a start next Saturday March 3rd. I'll go back through the book this weekend and try to plan for some logical way to break it into pieces or someone else can post their thoughts on how to break it down.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Ok, I'm in for starting on the 3rd. Thanks for the response. I haven't even completed the first read-through yet, so no suggestions on how to organize study group at this point. Will stay tuned.....

 

[Nathan Williams]

This was the breakdown that was proposed and used with the 2+2 study group for my book.

Part 1: Introduction (page 1 to 53)
Part 2: Preflop play page 54 to 111)
Part 3: The flop (page 112 to 165)
Part 4: Turn and River (page 166 to 192)
Part 5: Miscellaneous (page 193 to 251)

I think it made a lot of sense.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Seems to make sense. What kind of time-frame did you envision for each part? In other words, how long would we be working with part 1 before moving to part 2, part 3, etc.?

 

[Nathan Williams]

We did one part per week. I think that makes the most sense.

 

[Big_Rudy]

OK, sounds good. That should give us plenty of time to go over things. Really looking forward to this. I'm playing 6-max lately, though, so hopefully we can get into suggested adjustments for that format some.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Thread has been quiet for awhile. Don't tell me I'm the only one following-through on this? Anyway we are supposed to start today, and I'm not sure where things stand. Read the book through twice, now. Will re-read in more detail the first section for review again, but......

Hopefully this still goes forward. Are we supposed to be doing things in a Q/A format? Or, what?

Anyway, a couple easy ones to get things started....

1) Nathan, I notice you said somewhere you're playing a lot of 6-max now, probably more than FR. Why is this when you've had such success at FR? And, do you think this would be a good move for others?

2) Regarding the different 2nl/5nl strategies that you set forth.... I live in the US, so I play only on Merge right now. That means 4nl. I'm torn between strategies. On one hand it's still the first level (so 2nl strategy?), on the other hand the player pool is smaller, and at least somewhat better than the total circus that was pre-BF on PS (so 5nl strategy?). Start with 2nl strategy and be ready to move to 5nl strategy?

3) Lastly, I'm looking at Carbon's lobby right now, and the table VPIP's (FR) range from a high of 24% to a low of 12%, so it seems like the games are somewhat tighter, in general, than on PS and certainly tighter than pre-BF when we had many more casual players. How should this, generally, affect the generic ranges you set-out that FR players should fall within (e.g. 12/10 to 18/16)? Against tighter tables, in general, should we be moving toward the wider end of that range as our default play?

Sorry if this is not the kind of stuff that we should be discussing. This is my first study group (hopefully) and I'm really kind-of in the dark here.

Thanks,

 

[nabmom]

3) Lastly, I'm looking at Carbon's lobby right now, and the table VPIP's (FR) range from a high of 24% to a low of 12%, so it seems like the games are somewhat tighter, in general, than on PS and certainly tighter than pre-BF when we had many more casual players. How should this, generally, affect the generic ranges you set-out that FR players should fall within (e.g. 12/10 to 18/16)? Against tighter tables, in general, should we be moving toward the wider end of that range as our default play?

I am playing exclusively on Carbon right now, 6-max. Have been playing at 4NL and am just moving up to 10NL. I also see that the games are tighter than the typical loose play that Nathan describes at 2NL. But I definitely see percentages in the 30% ranges. Might matter on what time of the day you play.

I had already asked Nathan about the difference between 6-max and FR. Mainly, I just took out the early position and considered 6-max as starting with middle position.

How wide I go with my ranges depends on who I'm playing against. I use PT and tag players on Carbon (I'm happy to share how I determine tags if you want). I tighten up against fish (since they won't fold to my aggression as easily) and loosen up against the nits (standard practice afaik).

Overall, my first take-away from the book and from feedback on this forum is that I was playing way too wide from the blinds. So I've tightened up there and have seen good results.

 

[Nathan Williams]

Thread has been quiet for awhile. Don't tell me I'm the only one following-through on this? Anyway we are supposed to start today, and I'm not sure where things stand. Read the book through twice, now. Will re-read in more detail the first section for review again, but......

Hopefully this still goes forward. Are we supposed to be doing things in a Q/A format? Or, what?

Anyway, a couple easy ones to get things started....

1) Nathan, I notice you said somewhere you're playing a lot of 6-max now, probably more than FR. Why is this when you've had such success at FR? And, do you think this would be a good move for others?

2) Regarding the different 2nl/5nl strategies that you set forth.... I live in the US, so I play only on Merge right now. That means 4nl. I'm torn between strategies. On one hand it's still the first level (so 2nl strategy?), on the other hand the player pool is smaller, and at least somewhat better than the total circus that was pre-BF on PS (so 5nl strategy?). Start with 2nl strategy and be ready to move to 5nl strategy?

3) Lastly, I'm looking at Carbon's lobby right now, and the table VPIP's (FR) range from a high of 24% to a low of 12%, so it seems like the games are somewhat tighter, in general, than on PS and certainly tighter than pre-BF when we had many more casual players. How should this, generally, affect the generic ranges you set-out that FR players should fall within (e.g. 12/10 to 18/16)? Against tighter tables, in general, should we be moving toward the wider end of that range as our default play?

Sorry if this is not the kind of stuff that we should be discussing. This is my first study group (hopefully) and I'm really kind-of in the dark here.

Thanks,

Hey Big_Rudy,

I will just answer some of your questions here. Regarding the study group I would be happy to help out but if there isn't enough interest then it won't start.
Perhaps somebody should name a date like say next weekend and ask who is in. Get a count. I don't know how many people would be needed. Probably not more than a couple to get a decent discussion going. But it's up to you guys to start this thing. I'm not going to crack the whip here haha.

1) I have always preferred 6max and HU to be honest. I just played full ring in the past because it is easier to multi-table and collect rakeback and be a nit and auto pilot and all that. I think table selection is becoming an increasingly important part of online poker these days as well and it is hard to do so or even find enough quality tables sometimes if you are on 24.

2) In my experience the NL4 game on Merge plays closer to NL5 on Stars.

3) I wouldn't pay too much attention to those lobby numbers. I mean still go for the higher ones but all you need is one 40vpip whale to make a table good. Sometimes the nits at the micros are insanely nitty as well like a single digit vpip. This can really bring down the table average and make you think that there are no fish there. So I actually much prefer to micro-manage my table selection these days and look at individual players rather than look at table averages. Again, much easier to do when not playing 24 tables!

In general I will open up my game a little bit more if I have a good seat at the table (i.e., the fish is on my right). But in general I don't really vary my game that much table to table.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Ok, thanks for the replies Debpes and Blackrain. I don't know what to make of the study group situation. I THOUGHT WVH had it set-up to start on the 3rd (today), and I thought there was some interest, at least judging from the earlier posts. Then, just nothing. Guess we'll have to to get a more definitive in/out answer from some more people.

I'm definately in, and have been looking forward to this. Still, I know we need more. C'mon people!!!!! I know many of you have the book. Surely there must be some interest/questions? Hand Histories to work through? Anything?

I thought it was extremely generous of BR to offer to do this. I don't think it's something you'll get a chance at everyday. So, where's the interest? Or, am I (and maybe Debpes?) the only ones with any interest? Seems like such a waste not to accept help from such an accomplished player when it's offered.

 

[Big_Rudy]

@Debpes,

Yeah, I struggle with being too wide from the blinds as well. I was doing better at tightening-up from those positions, then I moved to 6-max and seem to have forgotten that. Still more work to do on my game...... But, I'm getting there.

 

[nabmom]

3) I wouldn't pay too much attention to those lobby numbers. I mean still go for the higher ones but all you need is one 40vpip whale to make a table good.

I have a table stat in my HEM that shows the VPIP/PFR of the table as I'm playing. This helps me spot when a looser table starts to tighten up and also is a better indicator of what is actually happening at a table as I'm playing as opposed to what WAS happening when I joined the table.

Until someone else posts about their interest in being in this thread, or until WVH weighs in, how's about we spend this week addressing any questions about the first section (introduction).

My first point to anyone considering if this book is right for them is that I would NOT worry about FR vs. 6-max. The information mostly can be used for both just as well (just the starting hand range needs to be adjusted).

I'm going to look over the Intro now and see if I have any other comments about that.

Sound good?

 

[Big_Rudy]

I use the same table-stats info so that I also have a clearer picture of how the table is actually playing. I don't know how far back that stat reaches, though, to come up with those numbers, but I do use it.

Barring any input/rebuttal from WVH/BR or anyone else, your plan sounds good to me. Like I've said, I read the whole thing twice, but quickly, already. I will re-read, more throughly this time, the introduction (pgs 1-53 is what I think was talked-about earlier) and post any thoughts/questions here.

 

[Big_Rudy]

About adjusting to 6-max..... I agree you need to adjust YOUR starting hands, and you should be able to figure that out from the chart BR provided. But, surely, you must also adjust how you classify the villains as well.

I mean he gives general definitions for what comprises a nit, tag, slp, fish, and maniac. All those numbers, though, are FR-based. I doubt you're ever going to see someone as nitty at 6-max as you do at FR. Similarly, a TAG's numbers will be different, a SLP's, etc, etc. So I think you need to make those adjustments when you're contemplating your actions as well. The adjustments to the numbers aren't necessarily hard to figure-out, but you do have to be aware of them

 

[Big_Rudy]

Just two so far? No one else interested in this?

 

[Big_Rudy]

Still no interest? Hmmm, I may send WVH a PM later to get his take on this since it seemed like there was at least some interest earlier.

@Debpes and BR (if you're still here), I finished re-reading Part 1 (intro ppgs 1-53), and don't really have much in the way of questions. How about you, Debpes?

Only thing of real note that I have to say is that the Merge lobby pretty-much sucks. No way that I know of to sort by multiple fields, no way to even limit it to just one stake, but nothing we can do about that I guess. Also, I'm FAR from a computer genius, so if I were to ever get to the stage where I felt I needed AHK or Table Ninja, I guess I'd go the TN route. Do you use either of these Debpes?

Anyway, I'm sure I'll have more questions (again IF this thing goes forward) once we get into the next section- Pre-Flop Play. 'Til then I'll check back periodically.

 

[absoluthamm]

I am interested, but Saturday is out for me that's why I wasn't around. Late on a weeknight would be best for me, but I don't expect everyone to work around my schedule, so I was just going to reread through whatever happened.

 

[Big_Rudy]

I am interested, but Saturday is out for me that's why I wasn't around. Late on a weeknight would be best for me, but I don't expect everyone to work around my schedule, so I was just going to reread through whatever happened.

OK, good to know. We've just been sort-of informally talking about section 1 now and, tbh, there's not a lot there for someone who has much experience with the game. It seems to be aimed more at beginners, which is fine.

Hopefully things pick up a little when we get to section 2, pre-flop play.

 

[absoluthamm]

yea, that's another reason why I kind of skipped this thread a bit. I've played enough hands to understand what's going on in that first section so... Hopefully everything picks up.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Ok, I just sent WVH a PM to see if any of the "powers that be" here at CC are going to be involved in/coordinating this, or if its basically up to the 2-3 of us plus Nathan.