Betting Question

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psychic14

Guest
Playing in a No Limit tournament

Down to 5 handed
Blinds are 300 600

First two players after the Big Blind fold.
The Dealer Button limps in for 600, he has 37,000 in chips.
The Small Blind calls, he has 7800 in chips.
The Big Blind checks, he has 2800 in chips.

Flops comes K 3 9.

The S.B. looks over in the B.B. direction and anounces " I take you all in."
The B.B. folds.

The Small blind thinks that the hand is now over until he realizes the Button is still in the hand.

The Button finally calls after a long delay and the S.B starts to push out 2800 in chips.

I said "that he couldn't push out 2800. He never announced that as his raise. You plainly said "I take you all in." Whether that was directed to the B.B. or not does not matter. You never stated that when you said it. You said " I take you all in." and were called by a bigger stack, you have to put the entire 7800 out."

After getting heated he says fine and puts his 7800 out which he promptly loses to a Q high flush draw on the river. Of course he is really hot now. In the end I refunded his buy in but still felt I was correct in this ruling. Any clarifications would be greatly appreciated.
 
spore

spore

Rock Star
In a casino I believe the dealer would have asked for clarification on his bet. It could be taken either way as "I put you all-in", as in a 2800 bet, or as purely an all-in.

At any tournament table I'm playing "live", if someone makes a questionable verbal declaration, I will ask them to clarify their bet, whether or not I am in the hand. That way there's no room for debate.

Were you correct in the ruling? Eh.. probably not, it seems to me his *intention* was to put the small blind all-in, not to risk all of his chips. If you were at the table, you definitely should have asked him to clarify his bet.
 
starfall

starfall

Visionary
The way he'd phrased it it sounded like he wanted to bet enough to put the smaller stack all-in, not to push all-in himself, so I thing your ruling was wrong - there's a world of difference between saying 'I'm all in' and 'I'm PUTTING YOU all in'. Just because the worlds all in were included doesn't mean they're referring to putting in all of their chips.
 
JeeDub84

JeeDub84

Visionary
I agree with starfall. There is a difference between "Im all in" and "Im putting you all in". On the other hand the player who called the bet should have waited or asked to have the chips put in the middle. I always like to have the chips put in the middle so I can see the pot size before I bet.
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Awards
1
You cannot "put someone all-in", thats betting for someone else if you know what i mean. If you want you can go all-in yourself, or bet enough that will cover an all-in, its then up to your opponent to call. You cannot put someone else all-in.

At least that was the last ruling i came across.
 
dinosdynasty

dinosdynasty

Rock Star
I take the bet as him putting the BB all-in so the bet should have been 2800 but the button (or someone else) should have clarified the bet before the button acted. The button should have re-raised him all-in anyway and maybe just stole the pot right there. I disagree with refunding his buy-in.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
You had no business interfering. If Button is happy that it's 2.8k, then consider it 2.8k and stay out of it. If he doesn't, then you have to use your judgment (I personally would tell him to stop being an angle-shooting tosser, but maybe that's just me).
 
starfall

starfall

Visionary
Dorkus also has as point - if you're not involved in a hand and those involved seem to be in agreement regarding the amount bet, there's nothing to get involved in.
TenBob, of course you can't literally put someone else all-in, but I've seen that kind of phrasing used in televised tournaments, and it has been taken to mean that you are raising exactly their opponents stack size when they've said something like 'I put you all in'.

On a strategic note, I'm not sure this is often the best strategy, because it is much more likely to let someone else get involved in the pot with you. You would generally want to take it heads up. Otherwise you can have a main pot that you'll contest no matter what, and if you miss the flop a continuation bet help much. This can make for a relatively tricky flop to play.
 
P

psychic14

Guest
Thanks for the insight...

I appreciate the input on my question. From now on I will make the player specify the raise amount if such an occasion arises again. Also I did not want to be involved in the hand but I was running the tournament and the other players at the table wanted clarification on the issue.

If this hand was heads up between the BB and SB then it would have been a no brainer. But with the button player still live in the hand I did not know how to proceed. Thanks again.
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
spore said:
if someone makes a questionable verbal declaration, I will ask them to clarify their bet, whether or not I am in the hand. That way there's no room for debate.
I will do this too. BUT only when I have cards.
If you are not in the hand, it's none of your business.
There are of course exceptions, but this is not one of them.
 
A

AceZWylD

Visionary
This is a tricky question.

In a 3 way hand, if a player makes a general statement to the table that he will put them all in, then that comment is directed toward the whole table. This means that he is verbally stating to the table that he is willing to push in all of his chips if the big stack calls. If he is making the all in bet against a specific opponent, then it is his responsibility to state which player he wants to push all in, and he still runs the risk being re-raised by the big stack. It is reckless play here by the better, and it sounds like he is pissed off that he got called in his own poor play.

You could ask for clarification here, but IMO this is a table foul. This is kind of like someone saying that he is "going to call, and raise".
 
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