Am I playing too tight???

[Ronaldadio]

Like all of us I constantly get turned over with bad calls from other people.

It got me thinking, am I playing too tight? I`ve read all of the Sklansky books and others, tried to follow them but I feel the only way it is possible for the % to work is if everyone follows the % rule, otherwise they reduce massivly.

If there is a flush draw with only the river to come and I get around 5/1 pot odds I call. I can`t remember the last time I caught!!!

On the other hand, I am sitting with someone who is on the same chip stack, in a tourny today with 20000 chips. We are both in the top 10. Flop gives me AhQc with QdQh5c. Pot only 3000 so I bet 2000. He calls. Turn 3d. So I bet 7000. He then goes all in. I call, obviously knowing all that can be beating me is full house with pocket 5/3. He turns Jd2d, catches d on river. He was on button, I was middle position. Was it me or was that a bad call by him? Should you just protect your hand like a muppet and go all in with set? Throws the % argument out of the window if you start doing that?

So, back to my point, pot odds must be affected if people are not taking any notice of them. How do u get around situations like this???

It always seems the fish bust u!!!

And this is how my night finished...

PokerStars Game #6778990470: Tournament #34514452, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/10/26 - 17:01:27 (ET) Table '34514452 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: ronaldadio (750 in chips) Seat 2: Adv423 (1480 in chips) Seat 3: grapped (3290 in chips) is sitting out Seat 4: suckout god (1000 in chips) Seat 5: Guinesslad (2490 in chips) Seat 6: Boriqua Mari (1230 in chips) Seat 7: AirikF50 (670 in chips) Seat 8: ortlip25 (1120 in chips) Seat 9: fergwrx (1470 in chips)
Adv423: posts small blind 15
grapped: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ronaldadio [Kh 9s]
suckout god: calls 30
Guinesslad: folds
Boriqua Mari: folds
AirikF50: folds
ortlip25: folds
fergwrx: folds
ronaldadio: calls 30
Adv423: calls 15
grapped: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ts Td Qh]
Adv423: checks
suckout god: checks
ronaldadio: checks
*** TURN *** [Ts Td Qh] [Js]
Adv423: bets 90
suckout god: calls 90
ronaldadio: raises 630 to 720 and is all-in
Adv423: calls 630
suckout god: calls 630
*** RIVER *** [Ts Td Qh Js] [Jd]
Adv423: bets 270
suckout god: calls 250 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Adv423: shows [4c Th] (a full house, Tens full of Jacks) suckout god: shows [Ac Ah] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
Adv423 collected 500 from side pot
ronaldadio: shows [Kh 9s] (a straight, Nine to King)
Adv423 collected 2280 from main pot
Boriqua Mari said, "vn"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2780 Main pot 2280. Side pot 500. | Rake 0 Board [Ts Td Qh Js Jd] Seat 1: ronaldadio (button) showed [Kh 9s] and lost with a straight, Nine to King Seat 2: Adv423 (small blind) showed [4c Th] and won (2780) with a full house, Tens full of Jacks Seat 3: grapped (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 4: suckout god showed [Ac Ah] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks Seat 5: Guinesslad folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: Boriqua Mari folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: AirikF50 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: ortlip25 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: fergwrx folded before Flop (didn't bet

Any suggestion on what I should do??? Take a break?



Ronaldadio

 

[Egon Towst]

Bear in mind that pot odds are less important in a tourney than in a ring game.

In a ring game, it is legitimate to put chips into a pot where you are underdog if you have the odds. In the long run, this is a winning play and you can reload if it goes against you.

In a tourney, you can`t necessarily afford to lose chips on a long shot, even though it may be mathematically correct, because you can`t easily replace those chips and it may fatally weaken you and jeopardise a position you may have spent an hour or two building.

In tourneys, you must weigh the strategic situation as well as the tactical.

Don`t worry if you get busted out of a tourney by some fool who makes a bad play and gets lucky. Those things happen and they really p**s you off at the time. But luck can`t be helped, and anyway it evens out.

What you want to worry about is when you get busted because you made a less than optimal play. You can`t fix luck, but you can fix that.

And, with that in mind, in your second example above, you might think about whether it was right to go all-in when you did. The board is paired, so you should consider that there could be a full house out there.

I`m not saying you were flat wrong, but it`s worth thinking about. Was there another way you could have played it that would have protected you, without giving up the pot too easily ?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

So, back to my point, pot odds must be affected if people are not taking any notice of them. How do u get around situations like this???

This makes no sense. Pot odds are pot odds, regardless of the likelihood of villain calling. If you bet enough so as to not give villain correct odds to call, then, umm, he's not getting correct odds to call, and that's it. Why would you not want him to call when he's not getting correct odds to do so anyway?

1) You can't always win at poker. Stop worrying about winning every single hand you're in and just play and remember AA will lose to 33 once in a while. Some guy sucked out on you, it happened, why wouldn't you want him to put all his chips in as a 4:1 (or whatever) dog etc etc *insert rest of generic bad beat preaching here*

2) I didn't think I'd see a hand where someone plays K9o under the heading "Am I playing too tight?". At the risk of sounding repetitive, fold preflop.

3) loooooooooooooooooool @ the guy with AA in hand 2.

 

[Ronaldadio]

1) You can't always win at poker. Stop worrying about winning every single hand you're in and just play and remember AA will lose to 33 once in a while. Some guy sucked out on you, it happened, why wouldn't you want him to put all his chips in as a 4:1 (or whatever) dog etc etc *insert rest of generic bad beat preaching here*

2) I didn't think I'd see a hand where someone plays K9o under the heading "Am I playing too tight?". At the risk of sounding repetitive, fold preflop.

3) loooooooooooooooooool @ the guy with AA in hand 2.

I think that is what I need to understand. I can`t win every pot, but its so anoying!!!

Also, point 2) I was on button and needed to do something to stop the madness!!!

 

[blankoblanco]

In a tourney, you can`t necessarily afford to lose chips on a long shot, even though it may be mathematically correct, because you can`t easily replace those chips and it may fatally weaken you and jeopardise a position you may have spent an hour or two building.

In tourneys, you must weigh the strategic situation as well as the tactical.

Well said, Egon. Good post and explanation.

 

[Ronaldadio]

Here is a one for you...

What I find is when I`m in a tourny I believe most ppl are bluffing!!!

So, say I am sitting with QQ, I raise and get called. Flop is say A56. I raise, then get re raised, I then call or go all in - more so recently. Stupid I know. Would you guys think that if u accept most of the people who reraise are not bluffing most of the time?

Are there any good books on the psychology of poker as opposed to the pot odds? What I know has improved is my ability to make a continuation bet and I know it has helped me a lot. Thank u Mr Sklansky!!! So I think my pre flop play is normally good, my post flop play is very good if I catch, I get the most out of the other players, where I go to pot is when I miss my AK, the flop is 438. I do a continuation bet and get called. I am then lost!!! Is that normal? I also think playing live might help me?

 

[mrsnake3695]

There are some good books out there on poker psycology, I'm at work now and I don't remember the names though.

As far as thinking most people are bluffing, alot of players feel that way and they rarely do well in the long run. Almost everybody bluffs at times, but someone that bluffs alot is probably only bluffing 20-30% of the time. Unless you have a specific read or a reason to be suspicious of a certain bet, you may find you lose alot calling with 2nd best hand. It's called being a calling station and it's not something you want to be.

You are better off folding to a bluff then calling someone who has the nuts. In your example I would probably believe I was beat. Why?, well alot of online tourney players think any ace is the nuts and will call a raise with ace X. He called your preflop raise and then reraised post flop with an ace on the board. I would have a tendency to believe he has an ace unless I had info to indicate otherwise. That is why it is so important to pay attention to other players betting patterns and hand selection. Is he someone that will call a raise with any ace?, does he make big bets on draws (there was a possible straight draw on the board)? Etc. If you don't have any information then you can't call here.

By the way on the first example you gave, did you bet preflop? You don't say. If you limped or made a mini bet then the button can justify making a call with almost any hand, since he has position. His reraise with 2 diamonds was probably a semi-bluff since I doubt he put you on a set. It's been my experience that a set is the hardest hand to read.


"Also, point 2) I was on button and needed to do something to stop the madness!!!"

The above statement seems alot like someone on tilt here. The BB was only 30 and you had over 700, no need to panic here and play mediocre cards. When players feel like they are losing or on a bad streak they do exactly the opposite from what they should do. The play bad cards trying to get back when they should be tightening up.

 

[tenbob]

This makes no sense. Pot odds are pot odds, regardless of the likelihood of villain calling. If you bet enough so as to not give villain correct odds to call, then, umm, he's not getting correct odds to call, and that's it. Why would you not want him to call when he's not getting correct odds to do so anyway?

THINK ABOUT IT CHRIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its not a cash game. Why do this, why lay odds to someone in a tournament ?

 

[Ronaldadio]

By the way on the first example you gave, did you bet preflop? You don't say. If you limped or made a mini bet then the button can justify making a call with almost any hand, since he has position. His reraise with 2 diamonds was probably a semi-bluff since I doubt he put you on a set. It's been my experience that a set is the hardest hand to read.

I raised 6 times the bb. I always try, early in a tourny, to get them to fold even when I have a strong hand.

"Also, point 2) I was on button and needed to do something to stop the madness!!!"

The above statement seems alot like someone on tilt here.

Yes, I think u r right. The part of the game I need to work on is when u have the nuts after the flop, put in a big raise, get called and the dreaded A falls. If I have but say 1/2 of my 1500 chip stack and even if the bb is only 30 I do tend to push further than I should, to the point of making myself believe my opponent is bluffing

 

[Allsopp]

If your raising 6 times the BB preflop, thats why your getting called by crap.

I regularly make this play because people give their hands away with a raise such as that.

I'll pretty much call any raise like this if I think I have two live cards [hands such as 67,75,24,46 etc etc] so long as they are in some way connected.

Simply because I know that they are going to find it hard to let go of their hand. So, if I hit - I can bust them and take their entire stack.

Poker isnt so much about odds, its about people and how they act. Then playing accordingly to beat that style.

 

[Dingodaddy23]

I think that most people that play MTT's play too tight early on. See lots of flops and just play well and make better decisions after the flop than your opponets. Play suited connectors and 1 or 2 gappers from LP, small pairs, suited aces, etc. Do NOT play hands such as K9, Q8, Ax early on, theres just no need to make a TPNK type hand early on

 

[Ronaldadio]

An unusual way of looking at it, but

If your raising 6 times the BB preflop, thats why your getting called by crap.

I regularly make this play because people give their hands away with a raise such as that.

I'll pretty much call any raise like this if I think I have two live cards [hands such as 67,75,24,46 etc etc] so long as they are in some way connected.

Simply because I know that they are going to find it hard to let go of their hand. So, if I hit - I can bust them and take their entire stack.

Poker isnt so much about odds, its about people and how they act. Then playing accordingly to beat that style.

If people sre playing like this u must not be able to win in the long run. If I have an overpair and u have 67s u must be at best a 5/1 dog. I`m not a great player, but this does not make sense to me m8, sry. I`m not saying u r wrong, I`m just saying I would not like that play.

What do others think???

I will start this off as a thread?

Ronaldadio

 

[Egon Towst]

The play that Allsopp suggests is viable, but only in a deep stack game.

He will not often hit his straight, but when he does he will have a killer hand that the opponent is very unlikely to expect. Therefore, he will recover with interest the chips he lost the times he didn`t hit, but only if the opponent has a big enough stack to pay him off.

Bearing in mind what I said earlier about pot odds, this play is more suitable to a ring game than a tourney.

 

[Welly]

Was it me or was that a bad call by him?

Important to be clear, he made a very loose, badly timed, aggressive play. He did not call, you did.

Therefore, you cant really see it as a bad pot odds based decision on his part, merely a badly timed piece of aggression, that got lucky.

 

[Dingodaddy23]

If I have an overpair and u have 67s u must be at best a 5/1 dog. I`m not a great player, but this does not make sense to me m8, sry. I`m not saying u r wrong, I`m just saying I would not like that play.

these are the hands you WANT to get in there with when you think your opponet has an overpair. You are NOT 5:1 dog, I think AA vs 76s is 3:1? not positive, but i know that those are the best hands to crack overpairs. Especially if you believe your opponet will stack off with an overpair when you hit a flop. thats how you get chips man. if you're only playing big hands you become painfully easy to read and thinking opponets can play perfectly against you.

 

[Ronaldadio]

Can`t b 3:1 !!!

these are the hands you WANT to get in there with when you think your opponet has an overpair. You are NOT 5:1 dog, I think AA vs 76s is 3:1? not positive, but i know that those are the best hands to crack overpairs. Especially if you believe your opponet will stack off with an overpair when you hit a flop. thats how you get chips man. if you're only playing big hands you become painfully easy to read and thinking opponets can play perfectly against you.

U must be at least 5:1 to win with AA v 76s if u hold 76.

 

[Egon Towst]

According to my Odds Checker, it`s 77/23 (or about 3.5 to 1).

 

[Dingodaddy23]

its all about implied odds dude...

 

[quazar66]

Take a break

1. Odds will even out plain and simple.
2. Your mind is not on the game its somewhere else because
   1. Your bad bets are making you gun shy
   2. Your glass is half emply in your eyes at this point
   3. you need a break and you didnt do it before it got bad
3. Are you playing too tight?
   1. Depends on your style
   2. You should be asking yourself are your playing right?
4. Fish allway win
   1. No they dont
   2. THe reason why it seems that way is because we only remember the bad times not the 2 weeks earlier that you gave others bad beats all the time
5. should you do something diffrent
   1. Yes
6. when all else fails
   1. Go back to basics
   2. play like a rock
   3. lower your limits
   4. stick to odds
   5. IT WILL TURN AROUND

 

[ChuckTs]

1. Odds will even out plain and simple.
2. Your mind is not on the game its somewhere else because
   1. Your bad bets are making you gun shy
   2. Your glass is half emply in your eyes at this point
   3. you need a break and you didnt do it before it got bad
3. Are you playing too tight?
   1. Depends on your style
   2. You should be asking yourself are your playing right?
4. Fish allway win
   1. No they dont
   2. THe reason why it seems that way is because we only remember the bad times not the 2 weeks earlier that you gave others bad beats all the time
5. should you do something diffrent
   1. Yes
6. when all else fails
   1. Go back to basics
   2. play like a rock
   3. lower your limits
   4. stick to odds
   5. IT WILL TURN AROUND

Quote for emphasis.

Listen to every word he just said.