All Gamblers Please Respond

[rileyl]

For those of you who say poker isn't gambling just because you have an edge or whatever, that argument isn't really that valid. Your still wagering money on an outcome where chance plays a role.

Look at it this way.

If you were to bet with a person on the roll of a die and he was going to give you 8:1 on your money on picking a number would you consider thtis gambling? Even though on the long run you will make money, because of your mathematical edge doesn't mean this isn't gambling. Poker is exactly the same way.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

For those of you who say poker isn't gambling just because you have an edge or whatever, that argument isn't really that valid. Your still wagering money on an outcome where chance plays a role.

Look at it this way.

If you were to bet with a person on the roll of a die and he was going to give you 8:1 on your money on picking a number would you consider thtis gambling? Even though on the long run you will make money, because of your mathematical edge doesn't mean this isn't gambling. Poker is exactly the same way.

whether we have an edge or not is totally irrelevant. What matters is the volume we play and nothing else.

At the atomic level, quantum theory says that everything is probabilistic. It only appears deterministic at our level because there are so many atoms at play that considering that the EV is reality makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Poker is just the same. If you have enough hands, your win rate, be it positive or negative, will appear deterministic and be based entirely on your skills instead of short term random luck.

 

[lime_yyy]

If you choose not to answer my questions do not reply. Thank you!!!

To ncscout, tenbob, gorblid, belgosuisse, and glworden, thank you for your participation! :]]

 

[paddythejack]

in trying to anwser your Qs . i dont consider playing texas hldem gambling it really does take some skill ; in trying to master the game its v hard ive been playing a few yesrs and when you loose a pot u say to ur self i knew he had that hand but really theres gtreat fun to playing you cant describe it you have to expereince it for your self ; I dont really make a fourtune and i dont loose a hole lot some months im up money and some im down money it usually = s out ; dont really know of anny rouge sites but im sure there out there you just got to go with the names you know ; there was a story around a while ago about a group of players trying to cheat a poker site but quite frankley i dont really think you could unnless u work for the pioker sites then again i dont know buddy , besyt of luck with ur paper ..








LOVE LIFE PLAY TO WIN[/quote]

 

[Insaneasylm]

you have to think more in live games than in online games. most people take the real challenge out of the game buy useing poker tracker and other such help devices. All the info you need if pretty much there how much the guy bets what the hands are he bets with. Yes i know you have to play with them to get the stats but still you have them availabl. I currently don't use any such thing but i don't gamble online to much either. I like the live version better thats the way the game was supposed to be played.

 

[Jodieblonde]

I don't really consider playing online gambling. At least is isn't for me. I lose a few dollars here and there and I consider it more intertainment then gambling.

 

[simonb]

i would like to say that my experience with online casinos is that you win a little and then llose alot, when you first start out you have some good wins and when you raise the stakes is when it seems to be rigged. for example on two particuar sites i made alot of money very quikly, i meen hours not days and all of a sudden i couldnt win a thing. when i played roulette i got the same number out 4 times ina row and in the same sitting i got 0 four times out of five spins im not exactly sure what the exact odds are of this occuring but the chance of this happening is so low it is litteraly almost immpossible. I dont mind having a bit of a gamble making calculated bets but you cant win against that. so i stick to poker.

 

[Leo 50]

1. How do you feel about the laws governing online poker/gambling?
2. How much money do you spend monthly playing poker? Do you usually end up with more money than you had or less?
3. Why do you enjoy playing poker?
4. Have you ever encountered a rogue casino online? What was your experience therein?
5. Have you ever encountered a player cheating online (i.e. collusion, bots, etc)? What did they do and what was your response (verbal, thought, or otherwise)?

1. The laws in the US are ridiculous. Basically the government realizes that a lot of people are playing online poker and the companies they do business with are NOT U.S. companies so tax information is not relayed to the government.
Also many of the Casinos in Vegas as well as those around the country feel they are losing a lot of money to the Net.

2. I haven't deposited any money on the web sites since the government has made it so difficult to do so. I played in some freerolls made a small bankroll and continue to play online with their money.
I do play once month in a live game and have done quite well in that.

3. Poker is a great game, the interaction with the other players and trying to read the situations presented to a player make for a great experience (assuming you read it correctly)
And nothing beat the feeling you get when you bluff someone off a pot.

4. I have only played at Full Tilt, and a little at poker stars.
I used to play at site call Poker Room(?) a long time ago and won some money there (at the time I had actually deposited about $100).
I withdrew my money with no problem.

5. I haven't ever found a cheater online. At least as far as I could tell.

Hope this helps

 

[DawgBones]

I bet you don't respond to this

OK for my last response on this please check Paw Kit Aces reply... If you don't believe Poker is gambling then you don't understand Poker. You can throw all the quantum physic rules of the universe out there to try and justify I'm not sure what ,but the bottom line is, if you bet anything on something you are not 100% sure of the outcome, then YOU ARE GAMBLING. Period Exclamation Point

 

[Halibel]

We've seen these posts before, I don't anybody believes you are a college student doing research.

Some retarded economic survey. More reason for the retarded government to put a ban on online poker.

 

[glworden]

For those of you who say poker isn't gambling just because you have an edge or whatever, that argument isn't really that valid. Your still wagering money on an outcome where chance plays a role.

Look at it this way.

If you were to bet with a person on the roll of a die and he was going to give you 8:1 on your money on picking a number would you consider thtis gambling? Even though on the long run you will make money, because of your mathematical edge doesn't mean this isn't gambling. Poker is exactly the same way.

Riley,
You are technically correct in that you're gambling on the outcome of any given hand, regardless of the odds. Even if you're 99% favored, you could lose in any given instance.

But you're really stretching it to call poker as a whole gambling. The skillful player will recognize and exploit those situations where the odds are in his favor, avoid those where they are not, and most definitely will be profitable in the long run.

The outcome of a given hand is uncertain. The outcome of correctly applying statistical probability to a large number of hands is not a gamble, it is a certainty.

You do a disservice to the poker community when you propagate the notion that poker is gambling, since gambling is denigrated as a vice by some and is the target of legal sanctions. The Poker Players Alliance and others are working hard to establish the legal definition of poker as a game of skill, which it is. Why nit-pick and trot out a single instance of variance when there is certain knowledge about such probabilities; this knowledge is what gives the studied and skillful player the edge. Technically that player may be "gambling" on that particular hand, but his longterm outcome is not at all a gamble.

Of course, as in any game, even the skilled player can make errors. Errors are the foundation of many sports: the pitcher who pitches the home run ball, the football safety who drops his coverage, the tennis player that flubs a return. Equally skilled players play a competitive game because perfect play is impossible. Like any sport, the skilled player must make correct decisions and maintain focus. This is another way in which poker is most definitely a game of skill.

Gary

 

[Paw_kit Aces]

I find it fascinating that so many on this site are offended by the notion that poker is gambling. Just because poker is a game of skill does not change the fact that it is gambling. I don’t believe it is a disservice to call poker what it is, a gambling game. In fact some say it is a disservice to deny the facts. Allow me to quote David Sklansky, Ed Miller and Mason Malmuth from one of my favorite poker books Small Stake Holdem “...In fact; while it may seem like a harmless cliché [poker isn't gambling] denying that poker is gambling can causes you to make systemic errors. Expert poker players make their money in fundamentally the same way that casino, bookmakers, sports handicappers, card counters, and any other long-term winners at gambling make money. With every decision they strive to maximize their overall expectations." And this is where there the skill comes in. I don’t think it serves any purpose to deny the facts except perhaps to ease ones conscious or to incorrectly justify making legal changes based on the legal definition of gambling.

 

[Revan7]

As far as I'm concerned, poker is gambling because the outcome, no matter how good you are or the calculations you take, is never certain untill the end of a hand. And as far as laws go, I live in the US and I think that gambling laws are ridiculous. If I work to make money, who should be able to tell me how to use it because of my age. And also, I can join the military at 18 and die for my country but yet I can't walk in a casino and play cards. I just don't think that is in any way right.

 

[glworden]

I find it fascinating that so many on this site are offended by the notion that poker is gambling. Just because poker is a game of skill does not change the fact that it is gambling. I don’t believe it is a disservice to call poker what it is, a gambling game. In fact some say it is a disservice to deny the facts. Allow me to quote David Sklansky, Ed Miller and Mason Malmuth from one of my favorite poker books Small Stake Holdem “...In fact; while it may seem like a harmless cliché [poker isn't gambling] denying that poker is gambling can causes you to make systemic errors. Expert poker players make their money in fundamentally the same way that casino, bookmakers, sports handicappers, card counters, and any other long-term winners at gambling make money. With every decision they strive to maximize their overall expectations." And this is where there the skill comes in. I don’t think it serves any purpose to deny the facts except perhaps to ease ones conscious or to incorrectly justify making legal changes based on the legal definition of gambling.

Words have meaning. You must like poker since you're on this forum. But you live in Washington State where it's a felony because repressive politicians have managed to manipulate the definition. I want my rights. I'd like to continue to develop my skill in this game, and I refuse to cede the language to those who manipulate it for political purposes.

Let's face it. It's both. But in the long run skill trumps luck, so it's predominantly a game of skill. It's not even a close call.

By going along with this manipulation of the language, you cut your own throat.

GW

 

[BillHall]

I will try to answer your questions...

...of course Poker is gambling, because no one will ever play enough hands perfectly to take the random chance out of it.

I am unable to spend enough time playing hold'em to be patient enough to wait for good starting hands, so for right now I lose more than I win.

U.S. laws are of course stupid.

I have never had a problem cashing out on-line, but I have only cashed out on PS.

I have played against bots on low stakes cash tables, but they are very easy to beat, so it was no problem.


see you on the felt.

 

[glworden]

...of course Poker is gambling, because no one will ever play enough hands perfectly to take the random chance out of it.

.

Just more ill-conceived notions. To follow your logic, since no one plays hands perfectly, thereby making the results random, why do we even strive to improve our game? Let's just sit at the table, have a quick lottery then go home?

There's a carelessness with terms here that's really problematic. A random distribution of cards does not mean a random distribution of results. But you use that word random to imply that since the results are random, poker is nothing more than a pure gamble.

The cards are ordered randomly in the deck, but once you have your hole cards and see the flop, the results are no longer random. They are very predictable, especially when the same scenario is repeated a large number of times. I have AA and the flop has two aces. You're my opponent. Are the results random in the sense that you'll win half the time and I'll win half the time? Of course not; that's ridiculous.

The fact that outcomes can be known and predicted is what makes this a learnable game. And if you say that no one will ever play hands perfectly and that this somehow leads to random results, you're really only supporting the fact that this is a skill-based game. The closer you come to perfect play, the better the results.

There seems to be a wall here, and you "poker is gambling" guys are mixing terms and are inconcise in your arguments. You are not listening. It doesn't matter. Think what you want. Poker might be gambling for you because you play without discipline or don't care to learn or apply the odds. But for those who study the game, the expected value that derives from predictable outcomes is not a hazy notion. It's a guarantee that over the long run, proper play will produce a profit. There is just no debating it. It's a fact.

I don't mean to be contentious or derisive, and I do understand your point about gambling = wagering on an uncertain outcome. But that is only a short-term single-situation view of the game. Over the long term, the outcome is certain. The odds will always prevail.
Gary