"Actual Facts Playing Online Poker"

Q

quads

Guest
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Total posts
414
I think my personal long term experiences playing online poker, might be able to help in giving someone a direction, one way or the other. This is where I stand after investing over five years into online poker. I rounded off the dollar numbers to make the read a little easier.

I was already playing live poker at casinos, but around “2002”, with the growth and talk of online poker, I decided to give online poker a serious go of it. After six months of reviewing what was available playing at three or four of the top rated sites I decided to go heavy with party poker.

After two years of predominantly playing cash games at Party Poker, my online bankroll was negative just over $16,000.00 dollars. My live game was showing a modest profit but not enough to cover online losses. My game was improving big time with the amount of time I was spending playing online but, I was having trouble over coming the negative variance. Considering I entered several big live buy-in tournaments at casinos and never hitting a money seat, my modest live play profit would have been much more.

Somewhere in “2004” the online tournaments were starting to get huge, so I then concentrated on tournaments shying away from cash games online. At the end of “2004” even after hitting several good pay seats in tournaments I was a negative $4,000.00 dollars for that year. (Total -20k) Yet, once again my live play covered a couple of big, live buy-in tournaments and still showed a small profit for the year.

Then in “2005” after finishing top five in three big purse tournaments online, and having a great year at sng’s, I won over $200,000.00 dollars. I got lazy after my first big cash out and started to buy directly into the big tournaments, instead of playing satellites, getting in for cheap. So for this year my online expenses were $9,000.00 dollars, with a net profit of over $190,000.00. Overall my online net was over $170,000.00 dollars. I played no live, big buy-in tournaments this year and my live play had a profit of over $7,000.00 dollars. This is a year I am still trying to at least duplicate.

“2006” I slowed down my live play spending most of my poker time online. I won online $32,000.00 dollars playing sng’s and tournaments, but my expenses were $18,000.00 dollars. My live play was a negative $6,000.00 dollars, but included one big buy-in tournament.

Then came October 13, and the UIGEA. Bye-bye Party Poker, and welcome all sorts of problems moving money around to other sites. After being on the verge of pulling the plug with the problems moving money, I found poker stars and the Paytru card headache free and just stuck with them even up to right now. Even though I could only deposit $1,000.00 dollars max per day.

If anything my game has improved even more over the years, and consider myself a dedicated and good poker player. I read everything, including forums, plus I have and use the latest online support programs, but just can’t seem to break through at Poker Stars. Don’t want to start with the rigged crap, but I seriously started to wonder. I jumped into poker stars pretty heavy but after one month completely backed off and just play the big purse tournaments, and mix up some sng’s. It’s now October 2007, and on Poker Stars have a negative ROI at -34%. I’m presently losing on Poker Stars over $20,000.00 dollars. My live play for this year had a profit of over $5,000.00 and once again no big buy-in tournaments.

I know it’s only a year at Poker Stars, but the negative variance seems impossible to overcome. I also started relying more on my PT, which could be one of the problems. Still I’m going to give it one more year, see what happens with both the site and the U.S. stance on the UIGEA. Maybe things will change or maybe they won’t. But one things for sure, it will have to be a cold day in hell before I give all my winnings back.
 
Last edited:
Flops'm&Bets'm

Flops'm&Bets'm

Guest
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Total posts
367
Thanks for the encouraging 'Facts'.!!
I think what perhaps, you are facing,
is the obvious mecca from other sites that have the UIGEA issues.
The things that I have read and observed from a General standpoint,
are that some sites are U.S. Friendly, Some are not.
Some Are canada Friendly, but not U.S. And still others Have State/by State deposit limitations via deposit methods.

And the rest of the sites that are 'drawing' players are usually the lower ranking sites offering Huge Deposit Bonuses and people are only in it for the Deposit Bonus and then cash out to support their main site of preference...or bust out their BR and move on.

I do believe Online Poker Players are a creature of habit in the style that they have adopted as the medium of favorite.
Whether it be because of their winning % or simply because of their format, ie. layout, game choices and tournament types, and availability.

The issue you are probably attempting to overcome..if the consensus is correct to say, that everyone that played on Party moved to either Full Tilt, or pokerstars or Both. So the 'stiffness' of competition has increased tenfold between them and the level of the Field has increased and the Level of the Talent-pool has gone up by leaps since 2002.

By reasoning that Poker on T.V. and 19-20 & 21 year olds are winning Major events 'Live'. The 'Boom' of Poker in this realm is, that if there is a $200,000 cash prize for the taking in just one game, that totals 4 years in the working world at a lower-middle class rate.
-So the masses flock to the forums, the bookstores, the videos, the internet, and acquire sofware to give them any edge possible to get the Big Win.

So all of a sudden everyone is a poker expert and they study all the odds,
All the %'s, any statistics they can get to stay on top of their game.
+EV, ROI%, Variance, pot odds, Odds calculators, OPR rankings, sharkscope, PokerTracker..

So there is part of the reason the variance has shifted against being more of a winning Player than in 2002-2005 for the quantum leaps since 2002 to now are astronomical in the # of players online and the # of Players that are becoming a 'Student' of the Game!

~And to 'emulate' their Poker 'Heroes' ~
 
Q

quads

Guest
Joined
Mar 25, 2007
Total posts
414
Your post above (Flops'm&Bets'm) is so much on target. No doubt your views are many of the major problems trying to succeed online today. To have any real chance of making good money online is obviously going to require more time then it use to, along with much bigger bankrolls. Also your going to need one hell of a game, and allot more luck with the cards. With all the software support available online today, opponents can simply play against your stats, from preflop to river. bluffing for the most part online is getting almost impossible to achieve. Playing the people not the cards is taking on a new meaning online, with all thats available.

This is why live play will always be the true definition of a good player, for the most part.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Your post above (Flops'm&Bets'm) is so much on target. No doubt your views are many of the major problems trying to succeed online today. To have any real chance of making good money online is obviously going to require more time then it use to, along with much bigger bankrolls. Also your going to need one hell of a game, and allot more luck with the cards. With all the software support available online today, opponents can simply play against your stats, from preflop to river. Bluffing for the most part online is getting almost impossible to achieve. Playing the people not the cards is taking on a new meaning online, with all thats available.

This is why live play will always be the true definition of a good player, for the most part.

Wait, so you don't play the player not the cards in a live game? Of course Flops'm&Bets'm is right about the boom, but there are still plenty of fish out there waiting to give you their money. They read in a book the concept of outs and think they're a poker expert. They call with longshot draws and in general play poor poker. The quality of play has increased overall (if only I had been born a few years earlier, I could have been playing online a few years ago) but there's still money to be made, you just have to be that much better than everyone else, good enough to overcome the rake as well.
 
KingNothing4

KingNothing4

Rock Star
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Total posts
382
ya i think the field of competition has been gettin crazy big last few years, i've only been playin online (full tilt) for...total 3 years, but after my first year i took sometime off and came back and even noticed the difference. but i do think ther is still money to be had cuz i do see alot alot alot of bad players still. i dont believe i have sat at a table of 9 without at least 2 bad players, so ya the competition is still getting stronger, but i believe it's far from impossible to build ur BR, just might be a little slower and take more BRM.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Also, the main thing is to win you need to be better than the other players (with enough of an edge to beat the rake). So if the players are getting better, that shouldn't be motivation to stop, that should be motivation to get even better. If most people are willing to study the game and read some real poker books, I need to be willing to do the above as well as examine my play, take every opportunity to get better, and talk about hands and such in places like this. No one ever became great at anything by finding something other people sucked at and being average. So if other people are getting better at poker, I'm just going to have to be even better than them. At least that's my goal.
 
Flops'm&Bets'm

Flops'm&Bets'm

Guest
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
Total posts
367
...So if the players are getting better, that shouldn't be motivation to stop, that should be motivation to get even better. If most people are willing to study the game and read some real poker books, I need to be willing to do the above as well as examine my play, take every opportunity to get better, and talk about hands and such in places like this. No one ever became great at anything by finding something other people sucked at and being average. So if other people are getting better at poker, I'm just going to have to be even better than them.

That is basically the point I was deriving from the OP, as well. That in order to achieve a Goal that equates to a +ROI% and ++EV on the BR,
the necessary things do involve Reading and applying new strategies to your game.
However they may be.
If playing $ Ring games, then studying the table before joining in and making notes on them for 1/2 hr. before hitting 'Join Table'.
Reading and analysis of your HH, and Others HH's and Forums to get opinions and appraisal.
I think if there are people willing to 'Stake' Players...there definitely ought to be some players out there willing to 'Mentor' some 'hopefuls'.

When attempting to apply any new techniques try them at freerolls and FreePlay chip S&G's at the Higher Level Buy-Ins - FIRST!.
Once you have a 'feel' for the 'new style' of play then introduce it into your game in $ Buy-In scenarios. And baffle the Players that have notes on you or have Stats from your previous sessions.

The thing about having more 'fish' in the sea is true, but the curve for fish to become improved becomes a greater spike in the graph due to the resources out there and Online.
Although some will play however they want regardless of what they have read or know..and put wrenches in works of Poker Theory 'a la 'Gus Hanson's any two cards that look reasonable Pre-Flop approach.

The cream always rises to the top..as I have noticed when playing a specific Level of Buy-Ins MTT or S&G the usual same players are the ones that are on the Leaderboard after 2 hrs. of Play quite often than not.

Times when you Play and days of the week are factors. And the length of any Poker session need to be looked at in the Over-All Analysis.
And as other Posts have advised, a Disciplined regimen of balanced play, balanced Bankroll Management, and necessary Study Time to evaluate your game and the game of others as well as your opponents.

If someone were to mentor a 'potential' player online. It would be as simple as what ChuckT has done in the analysis of someones HH and critique their play. Or to open a 'Chat' communication during a game. The Player relaying the Hole cards to the Mentor, and recieve advice during Play.
(similar to Daniel Negreanu's Low-Ball Video)

~Best to your Cards hitting the flop~
 
Top