Why am I struggling at 2nl but not so much at 5nl?

[bgomez89]

What is 'too tight'? What are the consequences for playing 'too tight'?
What is the basis of your opinion? What stakes do you play? Do you play FR or 6max? What is your win rate?

and so on

too tight is how he's playing. Consequences are you're probably not making as much as you could and you could be losing more. Personally, my 2nl stats I was a 30/15 or something with a winrate of about ~14bb/100 and at 5nl i'm probably like a 20/15 and beat it for 4bb/100

If I get stacked now it is when:

1. I am all-in preflop as a favorite and get unlucky
2. or if I am way ahead and my opponent has only 2 or 3 outs left on the flop to improve and gets lucky.
3. or I run into a set with AA or KK.

so the only way you get stacked is by getting coolered?

fwiw I don't think 20BIs is enough unless you can easily replace your BR but I do know that 100BIs is just wasting time. Personally I have at least 1 session every month or two where I drop 7-8 BIs. It's very common for me to lose 15BIs on some downswings. Good BRM practices allow me to keep playing through these downturns and yes sometimes I have to drop down but you have to be willing to deal with these swings to play poker. They're part of the game.

this is the truth. 100bis for these low limits is just nuts. I think that when you get a little bit over 20 BIs take a shot at the next limit and if you lose a couple BIs drop back down. Rinse and repeat.

 

[RamdeeBen]

this is the truth. 100bis for these low limits is just nuts. I think that when you get a little bit over 20 BIs take a shot at the next limit and if you lose a couple BIs drop back down. Rinse and repeat.

Well I understand the logic. However, say you're getting it all in preflop within a few hands if you're picking up aces and they get cracked or just start of badly by losing 2buy-ins due to bad luck. You then step down but you're left wondering that you only lost due to bad luck. That's why I like having more of a cushion in terms of BI's because you basically just threw away some buy-ins.

Seems kinda pointless jumping up to a higher level for 2 buy-ins, I find it is pretty standard to go on a 2BI losing streak and back up even, to then get in profit then down again and so on within a 30minute stretch so playing for a couple of buy-ins at a higher level doesn't make sense to me as you're bound to hit that cold spell at some point during the session.

By the way, yeah I probably was playing to tighter. A lot of those hands at least half was before I became more loose at 6max and before I actually "knew" what I was doing. First 30k hands I was well down $ 80.00.

I was $50.00 down in 5NL prior to my changes and now I'm showing a profit.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Is this your opinion on micros purely or at any level 100BI's being to many? I think I've asked this before and was told as you climb you need to increase the number of buy-ins.

15BI's to lose, wow...I don't think I could handle that. How do you deal with that in terms of motivation to get back to the tables and grind again? I lost 4 buy-ins at 5nl and just quit but managed to get that back today + a little more.

I know your stakes are probably a hell of a lot more so must be even more harder but do you just quit and carry on with the same right frame of mind or what?

I think for any recreational player 100BIs is overkill. Now if poker is your profession it's probably about right for 200nl+. I have increased the number of BIs I have used at each level I have gone through. I started at 25nl with 20BIs. Used 30BIs at 50nl. Tried 35 and 40 BIs at 100nl but just wasn't comfortable (likely because 100nl was the 1st level I was really struggling at) and finally settled in at 50BI for 100nl. I'm currently 1/2 way to having 50BIs for 200nl so we'll see how I feel about that when/if the time comes.

As for losing a bunch, of course it sucks. My biggest losing sessions have always had a few BIs of tilted spew thrown on top of some general runbad/playbad. I don't have a stop/loss although it might help me to avoid throwing away those last couple BIs and I just generally play again the next day. I try not to think of it as actual money, just BIs. If you dwell on what you could have done with those actual $$s it just makes things worse.

 

[vanquish]

How often do you play your A game?

i stop playing if i'm not playing my A game

 

[fx20736]

too tight is how he's playing. Consequences are you're probably not making as much as you could and you could be losing more. Personally, my 2nl stats I was a 30/15 or something with a winrate of about ~14bb/100 and at 5nl i'm probably like a 20/15 and beat it for 4bb/100

so the only way you get stacked is by getting coolered?

I used to try and raise and re-raise with nut flush draws until it was All-in in the flop but to make this move work you need some fold equity which is virtually non-existent at 2nl. You just can't shove and expect a fold at 2nl often enough to make it a reasonable strategy. That doesn't mean I don't do this on occasion but it's not my default strategy with nut flush draws anymore. If I was in a situation and I felt that there was enough money in the pot that my odds to call were less than my equity in the pot then yes I would shove

this is the truth. 100bis for these low limits is just nuts. I think that when you get a little bit over 20 BIs take a shot at the next limit and if you lose a couple BIs drop back down. Rinse and repeat.

Agreed. My BI is at 57 BI. When I get to 70-75 BI I will take another shot.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Fold equity when you've got the nut flush draw & at least one over (or top pair) doesn't matter because they will call off with lots of pairs which you have overs to and weaker draws which will make it +EV.

Obviously I wouldn't expect you to get the NFD in every time, it's completely situational. In some cases it's better to raise when you hit than raise on the draw.

Having 57BI for the next level and staying at 2NL is burning money IMO.

 

[vanquish]

you guys really need to let go of the "BR size" neurosis that a lot of you seem to have developed.

it's really not beneficial for your game to look at your bankroll over and over again and say things like "alright at this rate my BR should be $xyz in 2 months, then i can make $abc per day playing poker, that'd be good" and "well ive improved my winrate to $2/100 hands over my last 50k hands at 2nl, so i should be at 5nl within x days/weeks/months" and "how do you handle losing 1/10 of your BR in one session, i can't handle that"


this is not a personal attack on anyone (though it probably comes off as such) but seriously, just CHILL OUT and play poker. not every post/thread has to be about "which leak did i plug today" or "how did i improve the growth of my bankroll", poker is one long session and you should focus on having a healthy mindset and playing well, rather than compulsively going over every possible nitty aspect of your particular poker situation. it might be important to make sure your "won when bet/raised turn in 3b pot" stat is the way people tell you it should be, but its probably more important to take time to make sure youre playing with focus/confidence/positivity. this will help you when you're moving up in stakes (so you don't get psychological blocks preventing you from moving up to stakes you should be crushing), and will generally help you stay well-rounded at poker.


there is no secret recipe to every possible thing that might tilt you/annoy you/scare you about poker, but there are ways to approach poker that will reduce these negatives.




this is why mental coaches make lots of money.

 

[fx20736]

Fold equity when you've got the nut flush draw & at least one over (or top pair) doesn't matter because they will call off with lots of pairs which you have overs to and weaker draws which will make it +EV.

Obviously I wouldn't expect you to get the NFD in every time, it's completely situational. In some cases it's better to raise when you hit than raise on the draw.

Having 57BI for the next level and staying at 2NL is burning money IMO.

I'm at 57BI for 2nl. For 5nl I would be at 22BI, not enough to take a shot, IMO.

 

[bgomez89]

Well I understand the logic. However, say you're getting it all in preflop within a few hands if you're picking up aces and they get cracked or just start of badly by losing 2buy-ins due to bad luck. You then step down but you're left wondering that you only lost due to bad luck. That's why I like having more of a cushion in terms of BI's because you basically just threw away some buy-ins.

Seems kinda pointless jumping up to a higher level for 2 buy-ins, I find it is pretty standard to go on a 2BI losing streak and back up even, to then get in profit then down again and so on within a 30minute stretch so playing for a couple of buy-ins at a higher level doesn't make sense to me as you're bound to hit that cold spell at some point during the session.
.

what about the times where you pick up aces and they hold in a 3 way AIPF hand? Or what about when you crack someone's aces with kings? There's your new cushion.

Point is, it seems like you're expecting to lose and never win. That doesn't seem like the right attitude to have especially when you're taking a shot at a new limit.

I'm at 57BI for 2nl. For 5nl I would be at 22BI, not enough to take a shot, IMO.

yes it is

 

[Pascal-lf]

I'm at 57BI for 2nl. For 5nl I would be at 22BI, not enough to take a shot, IMO.

Fair enough then - its kinda normal when talking about taking shots talk in terms of the higher level BI, not the lower ones

 

[RamdeeBen]

what about the times where you pick up aces and they hold in a 3 way AIPF hand? Or what about when you crack someone's aces with kings? There's your new cushion.

Point is, it seems like you're expecting to lose and never win. That doesn't seem like the right attitude to have especially when you're taking a shot at a new limit.


yes it is

I know about the long run. You said take a shot with 2 buy-ins, if fails just drop back down. Now in my opinion I can't see how 2 buy-ins a higher level is going benefit me at all. It's so easy to lose that within a matter of 30minutes and I'm thinking it would be better to use that 2 buy-in on saving more of them up to actually have a decent chance and play with more buy-ins.

I understand what you're saying just I don't think 2 is enough to take a shot and if lose drop back down. I'm guessing most of the time you will always be dropping back down..

Anyway I am playing 2nl/5nl. I did "tilt" and play 10nl but buying in for $10.00 at a table it's like 20 buy-ins at my current bankroll. I don't mind taking shots I've done it before and I will probably take a shot well before I hit 1k. That was just the "ideal" situation I wanted to be in. Maybe around $500.00 at 10nl?

 

[vanquish]

when you take a shot at higher stakes, you're operating under the assumption that you're +EV at those stakes, meaning you will turn a profit in most sessions. thus, you won't "always be dropping back down" because most of the time, you'll book winning sessions, and barring a downswing or some other unforeseen circumstances, you'll become a regular at the higher limits and will never move back down

 

[brank]

Kinda like what Vanq is saying...

If you think its likely to lose 2 BI in 30 mins its gotta be just as likely to win 2 BI in 30 mins amirite? So in 30 mins you could win what would be 4 BIs at nl5 and then POW! You in like gin. Then there is the bonus of more RB to pad your BR. mmmmmm RB.

 

[bgomez89]

I know about the long run. You said take a shot with 2 buy-ins, if fails just drop back down. Now in my opinion I can't see how 2 buy-ins a higher level is going benefit me at all. It's so easy to lose that within a matter of 30minutes and I'm thinking it would be better to use that 2 buy-in on saving more of them up to actually have a decent chance and play with more buy-ins.

I understand what you're saying just I don't think 2 is enough to take a shot and if lose drop back down. I'm guessing most of the time you will always be dropping back down.

Usually when you take shots you don't drop back down till i think i read about 16-18 BIs.

Anyway I am playing 2nl/5nl. I did "tilt" and play 10nl but buying in for $10.00 at a table it's like 20 buy-ins at my current bankroll. I don't mind taking shots I've done it before and I will probably take a shot well before I hit 1k. That was just the "ideal" situation I wanted to be in. Maybe around $500.00 at 10nl?

if you want to play 2nl or 5nl till you hit 500 be my guest, it's your money but just know there is a risk of your head exploding

 

[RamdeeBen]

Hey i'm not saying I'm not going to take a shot it's just you said take a shot and if you lose 2BI's drop back down... Was pointing out that 2BI's isn't enough to really give a higher level a shot is it because of the swings.

I obviously want to move up as fast as I can, just don't want to bust myself

Thanks for the replies.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Kinda like what Vanq is saying...

If you think its likely to lose 2 BI in 30 mins its gotta be just as likely to win 2 BI in 30 mins amirite? So in 30 mins you could win what would be 4 BIs at nl5 and then POW! You in like gin. Then there is the bonus of more RB to pad your BR. mmmmmm RB.

This is very true. He/She just said take a shot at a higher level and if you lose 2BI's then just drop down. My point was purely I don't think "trying" a level with only 2BI's is a good idea as it might as well be money down the drain. I'd much rather try a new level with 10 BI's to cope with the swings.

 

[fx20736]

when you take a shot at higher stakes, you're operating under the assumption that you're +EV at those stakes, meaning you will turn a profit in most sessions. thus, you won't "always be dropping back down" because most of the time, you'll book winning sessions, and barring a downswing or some other unforeseen circumstances, you'll become a regular at the higher limits and will never move back down

What stakes are you currently playing? What happened each time you moved up? What happened to your hourly $winrate when you moved up?

Maybe the reason so many players struggle when moving up is not necessarily because the level of competition is better but rather that the newlly moved up is playing scared. When your standard preflop raise is .07 a .17 raise seems pretty big. If you make decisions not based solely on EV but on not losing too big a percentage of your bankroll then obviously you will be more exploitable. I think a lot of players when they sit down and open up a bunch of tables think more about the worst case scenario than best case. Every player with a large sample experiences downswings. When a player loses 2 buy-ins it probably occurs to them, is this going to be a downswing? When you work for tens of thousands of hands patiently building a bankroll then the idea that you could lose a weeks' worth of profit at the lower level in a few orbits at the next level it is easy to become apprehensive or dispirited. To play poker optimally you should be psychologically able to lose your stack in front of you without going on tilt. When Guy Laliberte loses $ 100,000 to Doyle Brunson do you think he cares about the money? Of course not, he's a billionaire. If I were to drive to Niagara Falls or Turning Stone and lose $ 200 playing $ 1/ $ 2 I would be really upset. That's the family groceries for the week.

One of my best friends is a poker player, he has lost $ 1500 in a single casino session, he has lost $ 500 in a night playing midstakes NLHE or PLO on Full Tilt. His tolerance for losses is pretty high. He said he doesn't get upset until he loses $ 1000. That's him. He's a bad player who loses a lot but he is single and doesn't worry about paying his bills. I have talked to him hundreds of times about Bankroll management, I have tried to get him to download Pokertracker, all to no avail. He gets bored at lower stakes. Every week I have to hear about how he bubbled out of a MTT or how he was Crushing PLO and was up $ 700 only to hear the inevitable; 'I couldn't push him off his draw' or how he 'knew' his opponent didn't hit that flush. You can't tell a guy like that anything about BRM.

Rake at Full Tilt is .01 per .15 raked pot up to .25 NL, I believe, Sure that is a higher percentage at 2nl but BB/100 probably goes down each time you move up also so who's to say what is more EV? If I knew I could beat 5nl for 3BB/100 I'd move up today.

Like I said my goal to move up is $ 140-$ 150. With that BR I could sustain a 7BI downswing and still have 50 BI @ 2nl.

 

[bgomez89]

This is very true. He/She just said take a shot at a higher level and if you lose 2BI's then just drop down. My point was purely I don't think "trying" a level with only 2BI's is a good idea as it might as well be money down the drain. I'd much rather try a new level with 10 BI's to cope with the swings.

wait, you know i was saying that you should try the next limit when you have 22BIs(the 2BIs extra are cushion so if you lose those you can drop back down) right?

 

[vanquish]

wtf are you even talking about?


jesus, your posts are starting to tilt me more and more.


why does it matter what my particular winrate is, or what stakes i'm currently playing (hint: it's > 10x your stakes)?


my point is that you guys are building psychological barriers for yourselves by compulsively counting how many buy-ins your roll has and exactly what your winrate is/blah blah blah. you're making it difficult for yourself to move up because you're glorifying the moving up process.


i believe we already went through all this in a different thread, but i can't be bothered to look it up because i'm trying to study for an exam atm.


if you treat your bankroll in family-grocery-equity, your poker future is doomed.


your poker bankroll is your WORKING CAPITAL. when you lose $5 or whatever, you didn't lose two packs of triscuits (2 for $5 at the corner store), you lost some percentage of your working capital.

if you continue to be paranoid about downswings (let's face it, you won't know what a real downswing is until you play small/mid stakes, but whatever) and compulsive about your bankroll, the bankroll/stakes/winrates of people who give you advice and continue graphing and plotting and regraphing and replotting your stats, you're going to drive yourself insane. PLAY WINNING POKER AND MOVE UP. CONDITION YOURSELF NOT TO SPEND EVERY MOMENT WORRYING ABOUT MONEY, AND PLAY GOOD POKER.


have some ****ing confidence in yourself for christ's sake.

If I knew I could beat 5nl for 3BB/100 I'd move up today.

things like this are massively tilting. grab yourself by the balls (or ovaries or whatever the other sex has) and step into it.


you're making it seem like you can't handle the tiniest bit of variance/action and its starting to drive me (and i imagine at least a few other posters) up a ****ing wall.


sorry for the tough love, but seriously, please stop being a nit and just play poker. we will all be happier once we've read about how you successfully moved up to 5nl in two weeks/three weeks/month/whatever, but we don't want to hear about how you have "57 BIs" then "58 BIs" then "oh no 54 BIs" every goddamn day. keep improving, and feel free to ask legit questions about hands/strategies/theories/whatever but don't turn every one of your posts into a long drawn-out multi-paragraph rant about exactly what your BR is and your winrate and everything.


you'll have to trust people like belgo, myself, WVH, others. we know what we're talking about. we've played many many hands at various stakes, successfully.





take the leap!

 

[RamdeeBen]

wait, you know i was saying that you should try the next limit when you have 22BIs(the 2BIs extra are cushion so if you lose those you can drop back down) right?

Sorry buddy I need to put some glasses on, or at least re-read what you said again.

"I think that when you get a little bit over 20 BIs take a shot at the next limit and if you lose a couple BIs drop back down. Rinse and repeat."

As you can see I didn't see or rather mis-read and for some reason didn't take in the 20BI part lol. I was fixated on the "if you lose a couple of buy-ins drop back down" part.

 

[vanquish]

that probably sounds insanely aggressive and prolly borderline offensive, but i'm on adderol atm and trying to study psychology so it forms into something helpful in my mind.


sry if i'm offending you or whatever, maybe i should just start avoiding threads like this rather than trying to participate actively in them (despite the fact that i have lots of playing/coaching experience and could probably give some positive input on the discussions anyhow).

 

[RamdeeBen]

haha vanquish....your post made me laugh. Great post. I can imagine how frustrating espically when me and FX are real BR nits. Anyway FX highjacked this thread! Christ I don't even know how we got into this lol....

I will move up soon and I guess stop the 100buy-in lark for micros seen as most people say it's way to much..

I do feel somewhat the same as FX about the whole thing when you do goto a different level and raising PF with 0.06 to then raising 0.18 kinda already think "christ" It is a big jump for us ultra micro grinders.

 

[RamdeeBen]

that probably sounds insanely aggressive and prolly borderline offensive, but i'm on adderol atm and trying to study psychology so it forms into something helpful in my mind.


sry if i'm offending you or whatever, maybe i should just start avoiding threads like this rather than trying to participate actively in them (despite the fact that i have lots of playing/coaching experience and could probably give some positive input on the discussions anyhow).

Well, I know it was directed at more at FX than me but I can imagine you actually sat there studying thinking "wtf am I doing wasting my time here" pulling your hair out and your blood boiling over some mega micro stake BRM grinders. I'm not offended, I thought your post was quite funny! Straight to the point too., good job.

 

[vanquish]

most civil advice i could probably give at this moment:

try to make some friends who play poker at same/higher stakes than you and talk to them on skype/AIM/whatever regularly. preferably people that are slightly more loose with their BR requirements or maybe just a little less uptight than you etc. this will keep you from driving yourself insane and will help you gain some perspective on how other successful players operate. maybe for someone like you, you don't want those people to be too degen (some of my poker friends are too degenerate even for me), but you can definitely gather something from talking to someone like WVH i bet.


something to think about i guess?



edit: thanks for positive feedback on my post, i wasnt sure if i was getting a bit over the top with it

 

[bgomez89]

Sorry buddy I need to put some glasses on, or at least re-read what you said again.

"I think that when you get a little bit over 20 BIs take a shot at the next limit and if you lose a couple BIs drop back down. Rinse and repeat."

As you can see I didn't see or rather mis-read and for some reason didn't take in the 20BI part lol. I was fixated on the "if you lose a couple of buy-ins drop back down" part.

sorry i was confused when you said

This is very true. He/She just said take a shot at a higher level and if you lose 2BI's then just drop down. My point was purely I don't think "trying" a level with only 2BI's is a good idea as it might as well be money down the drain.

i thought you may have thought that i meant to try a newlimit when you only have 2BIs for it.