When your check-raise gets re-raised

[ventrolloquist]

What's the most correct line when someone reraises your check-raise semibluff?

I check raised a nut flush draw only to get re-raised, I think there was a K and a J on the flop. I don't remember the exact flop so apologies for that, nor do I remember the re-raise size (microgaming doesn't have in App hand histories and I have to wait for them to be emailed to me ).

No reads on opponent because this was a fast fold table. If I can recall correctly I think he limped in from MP and I raised 4x from the blinds to steal and he called.

Thinking back, because the guy limped in I guess I should have assumed he was a fit or fold player and that if he's betting I should have given him credit for having a pair or better.

But for the sake of theory, if I was playing a stronger opponent how should I react to a flop 4 bet like this?

 

[Alucard]

Depends on the stack size, player, position,ranges & the board

Consider the SPR. Playing OOP sucks so if it's low SPR you can considder the odds & jam or fold. If SPR is high we can call & play more but cosidering the above things you can make some adjustments

 

[ventrolloquist]

Depends on the stack size, player, position,ranges & the board

Consider the SPR. Playing OOP sucks so if it's low SPR you can considder the odds & jam or fold. If SPR is high we can call & play more but cosidering the above things you can make some adjustments

Thanks for explaining. Stacks were deep (100bb) so SPR was high; at least before I reraised. So my fold was basically not appropriate?

 

[NapsterStrong]

If you have a nut flush draw and your bet is raised on the flop, then the subscriber assumes that you naturally have a flush and therefore tries to make you press the fold

 

[Alucard]

Thanks for explaining. Stacks were deep (100bb) so SPR was high; at least before I reraised. So my fold was basically not appropriate?

consider the odds & your outs & the villains 3betting range, his position & how the board fares with his position & his 3bet
even if the spr was high it's a flop 3bet so the chance of the money going in on turn is pretty high & people rarely bluff 3b so he's polarized towards value

 

[Aballinamion]

The Leveling Wars, Episode I: The Fish Menace

What's the most correct line when someone reraises your check-raise semibluff?

I check raised a nut flush draw only to get re-raised, I think there was a K and a J on the flop. I don't remember the exact flop so apologies for that, nor do I remember the re-raise size (microgaming doesn't have in app hand histories and I have to wait for them to be emailed to me ).

No reads on opponent because this was a fast fold table. If I can recall correctly I think he limped in from MP and I raised 4x from the blinds to steal and he called.

Thinking back, because the guy limped in I guess I should have assumed he was a fit or fold player and that if he's betting I should have given him credit for having a pair or better.

But for the sake of theory, if I was playing a stronger opponent how should I react to a flop 4 bet like this?

Hi there ventrolloquist, how you doing? Thank you for sharing your problems.
Now, this is really complicated to analyse because there are a lot of information missing.
So, I will try to make a default reading, very poor on my side, but lemme try it.
What do I have to say first: stop overbluffing your flush draws!
I see that almost 99% of the cash players love to re-raise/check-raise/3-bet their flush draws specially if they are nutted (with kings or aces). No matter if they are in position or out of position...
What happens when we raise a 100% of our flush-draws? We start to be exploited to death:

A) In the flop: many villains would never fold to a check-raise flop when it comes two cards of the same color. The reason is obvious, flops like this will have a lot of bluffs.
So, I know that villain knows that, so I will not try to bluff it very often with my flush draws. (meta-game)

B) What do I represent/balance when I raise a flush draw? I am representing a Top Pair that got scared of the board, two pair and sets. When we check-raise with a flush draw and we miss the turn are we going to continue representing our Top Pairs, Two Pairs and Sets, or are we going to slow down and check or bet less than the flop? What was your overall plan?
Once you decided to bluff your draw you gotta have a plan for turns when you miss.
Once you decided to bluff your draw you gotta expect situations where Villain is going to 4-bet you or jam and you need to know if you are willing to get in.
Once you decided to bluff your draw you gotta have a plan for the times you hit your flush nuts in the turn. Because you were representing Top pair+Two pair+sets, when it comes a flush and you fire again, what's that suppose to mean?

C) Do not raise your draws out of position! It doesn't matter that this player limped, what matters in fact is that you have no position over this player. Position is king man, specially for bluffing. Out of position we gotta have another plan. Consider that you are probably facing a recreational, which means, a player who isn't thinking at all!

When we are facing average regulars:

Average Regulars know everything you know. They are in the leveling war as much as you are. So, when it comes a draw in the board and you check-raise most of regulars will pick up your bluffs. Some will call to bluff you in turns where your flush doesn't complete and others will try to 4-bet flop or jam flop to put you in a very delicate spot.
You gotta ask yourself how would you play with your entire range in a situation like this: If we had top pair would we be check-raising? If we had two pair would we be check-raising? If we had sets would we be check-raising? Again, and when the flush completes in the turn/river, I would try to represent my initial value range or I will try to represent the nuts?

Against unknown players in fast fold tables:

The recipe is plain and simple: do not try to bluff players that you have no safe information. The only information you had is that the player limped and called. This is not a secure information for investing money in the long run.
A guy who limps has a great tendency of being a recreational, but this is not a excuse for us to try to burn chips versus this player. Because we already know that RECREATIONAL players DON'T FOLD (very often).
How can we try to bluff a guy who never folds? When you check-raise a fish and this fish has a Jx, or a Kx, it will call, jam, 4-bet because this guy is barely thinking about ranges: the fish looks into his hole cards, deduces his absolute equity and goes for the stacks!

A decent average regular playing cash games will have a 4-bet range flop like this from 5% of times to 10% of times at max. There aren't too many bluffs in check-raising/4-bet flop at the micros.
I would never check-raise my nut flush-draw like this in the flop versus a recreational. I would call and evaluate my equity in the turn again. If I were in position, maybe I would check-raise, maybe I would call; We don't need to balance anything versus recreational players, we can make a ton of exploitative calls and folds, without any concern.
Our only concern is when we are playing against an average regular. Besides, almost everything we do is correct, except of course, trying to bluff Level 1 players out of the pot.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[ventrolloquist]

Hi there ventrolloquist, how you doing? Thank you for sharing your problems.
Now, this is really complicated to analyse because there are a lot of information missing.
So, I will try to make a default reading, very poor on my side, but lemme try it.
What do I have to say first: stop overbluffing your flush draws!
I see that almost 99% of the cash players love to re-raise/check-raise/3-bet their flush draws specially if they are nutted (with kings or aces). No matter if they are in position or out of position...
What happens when we raise a 100% of our flush-draws? We start to be exploited to death:

A) In the flop: many villains would never fold to a check-raise flop when it comes two cards of the same color. The reason is obvious, flops like this will have a lot of bluffs.
So, I know that villain knows that, so I will not try to bluff it very often with my flush draws. (meta-game)

B) What do I represent/balance when I raise a flush draw? I am representing a Top Pair that got scared of the board, two pair and sets. When we check-raise with a flush draw and we miss the turn are we going to continue representing our Top Pairs, Two Pairs and Sets, or are we going to slow down and check or bet less than the flop? What was your overall plan?
Once you decided to bluff your draw you gotta have a plan for turns when you miss.
Once you decided to bluff your draw you gotta expect situations where Villain is going to 4-bet you or jam and you need to know if you are willing to get in.
Once you decided to bluff your draw you gotta have a plan for the times you hit your flush nuts in the turn. Because you were representing Top pair+Two pair+sets, when it comes a flush and you fire again, what's that suppose to mean?

C) Do not raise your draws out of position! It doesn't matter that this player limped, what matters in fact is that you have no position over this player. Position is king man, specially for bluffing. Out of position we gotta have another plan. Consider that you are probably facing a recreational, which means, a player who isn't thinking at all!

When we are facing average regulars:

Average Regulars know everything you know. They are in the leveling war as much as you are. So, when it comes a draw in the board and you check-raise most of regulars will pick up your bluffs. Some will call to bluff you in turns where your flush doesn't complete and others will try to 4-bet flop or jam flop to put you in a very delicate spot.
You gotta ask yourself how would you play with your entire range in a situation like this: If we had top pair would we be check-raising? If we had two pair would we be check-raising? If we had sets would we be check-raising? Again, and when the flush completes in the turn/river, I would try to represent my initial value range or I will try to represent the nuts?

Against unknown players in fast fold tables:

The recipe is plain and simple: do not try to bluff players that you have no safe information. The only information you had is that the player limped and called. This is not a secure information for investing money in the long run.
A guy who limps has a great tendency of being a recreational, but this is not a excuse for us to try to burn chips versus this player. Because we already know that RECREATIONAL players DON'T FOLD (very often).
How can we try to bluff a guy who never folds? When you check-raise a fish and this fish has a Jx, or a Kx, it will call, jam, 4-bet because this guy is barely thinking about ranges: the fish looks into his hole cards, deduces his absolute equity and goes for the stacks!

A decent average regular playing cash games will have a 4-bet range flop like this from 5% of times to 10% of times at max. There aren't too many bluffs in check-raising/4-bet flop at the micros.
I would never check-raise my nut flush-draw like this in the flop versus a recreational. I would call and evaluate my equity in the turn again. If I were in position, maybe I would check-raise, maybe I would call; We don't need to balance anything versus recreational players, we can make a ton of exploitative calls and folds, without any concern.
Our only concern is when we are playing against an average regular. Besides, almost everything we do is correct, except of course, trying to bluff Level 1 players out of the pot.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Thanks a lot for the advice Carlos

If I can recall correctly I had a gutshot as well but that 4bet just caught me off guard. I probably shouldn't do this stuff at micros vs. someone who would never fold their pair, you are right. I should tone down the fancy plays, especially on a broadway heavy board after villain bets the flop :s:

:tee:Cheers

 

[c0rnBr34d]

The details that are missing can easily change the answer to how you should proceed here. Particularly the size of the flop bet, the size of your check raise, and the size of his 3 bet.

Note there is no 4 bet in this hand, small terminology point. Pre flop there is a forced blind bet that confuses people, so pre flop the when you open it's not a bet it's a raise (2 bet), and the second raise is a 3 bet. Post flop there are no blinds so V put in the first bet, you raised (2 bet), and V 3 bet.

Back to the hand. If you indeed had a gut shot to go with your nut flush draw I don't mind the x/r but I'm only doing that to pile money in as we should mostly have 12 clean outs twice, meaning we are only a slight dog (45/55) to hands as strong as KJ and we are actually ahead of hands as strong as KQ (55/45 the other way). So if you have the gut shot you should have 4 bet piled it in on the flop. If you don't have the gutter you should probably just be bet/calling this flop depending on sizing. I also don't mind check / calling some of the time with so many outs. But again, bet sizing and whether or not we have a gutter to go with our NFD are huge factors here.