What would you have done?

bigjace

bigjace

Guest
Playing a $1/$2 cash game at betfair and down to $36 from a $50 start.I get JJ in late position but utg has raised to $6 and gets a caller(i debated a reraise but decided to call)
Flop is KKK(!) and everybody checks
turn is a 8 and the original raiser goes all in for $60,the other person in the pot calls.
I'm now thinking that my house is on dodgy ground,any king(unlikely) or pp aces or queens has me buggered.I would've called the original all in but the caller has me worried as he has played fairly tight poker so far and i think AK is a possibility.After some thought i decide to lay it down and the turn comes a queen.

Now i'll see what you guys think before i tell you the cards they were holding.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
I personally would have folded due to the fact you have two callers for $60. One of them either has a King or Queen. Even if they didn't, I wouldn't risk it. If it was just one player maybe I would have called.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Fold here definatly.. One probably has pockets himself and the other has A,Q or AX.. Always possible that one does have the last K.
 
M

mjr_jojo

Guest
I think I would have folded. One caller probably not, but with two..... Then again I know it would go through my mind that they have a smaller pair. I would have to hit the fold button quickly!
 
Grumbledook

Grumbledook

Guest
i'd prolly chuck that preflop I hate JJ ;]

your going to be folding to overcards and a bet with 2 players acting before you, so why waste money now

only other thing is a reriase but I don't like that with JJ in NL, of course with no info on the players its can be argued both ways
 
Bill_Hollorian

Bill_Hollorian

Rock Star
1.Re-Raise preflop, his raise from Im guessing middle position is terrible and he should be punished for it.

2.) You bet 9 dollars at the flop. You have fold equity, and you may have the best hand. The real King should come over the top here, and with 9 dollars he will have to push you in. But, you can still get away from the hand, but he thinks your trapped.

You should be willing to risk 30 dollars to triple up with this hand.

*Supporting logic* (please bare in mind I know nothing of the players, how much the second caller had in chips. Yes, even in cash games it matters. When he calls, what percentage of his stack is he risking?)

1.) Original raiser min raises. He wants folks in it with him. Suited connectors like 8,9 are candidates. middle pairs are possible, AK and AQ, and AJ are possible. caller has same range of hands.

2.) on the flop everyone checks. Is someone with a K slow playing? Lets bet and find out. 9 dollars.

3.) The 8 hits, now the guy pushes... He probably just filled up. he hit his 89 or 78, and wants to end the hand right now. Becaues I disagree with the flop play, the hand would take a different course, but I like calling a push. When it is all said and done you are likely against kkk88, and kkkAx. If you ran int a lonely K, well so be it, AA or QQ are the only hands that can beat youand would have re-reraised preflop so you could rule them out had you reraised preflop, and you are getting 3 to one. Also JJ is reasonably well concealed the way you chose to play it. They are probably putting you on Ax also.

Again i would have played every street differently, but go ahead and get your money in the middle.

Bill
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

Guest
I'm going to disagree with most of the replies here. I think you have the best hand when he goes all-in for $60. The pot is large enough, and I don't think you have to fear a 4th King (if he has it, then he's the luckies guy on earth and I'd pay $30 just to see his quads on the flop). If he has AA or QQ you're beat, but I think pot odds are giving you enough to call with your small amount of chips. I'm guessing that the guy who went all-in has 10 10, and the guy who called him has A Q.
 
bigjace

bigjace

Guest
Kudos to Bill and crippler on this one as you're nearly spot on.
The original utg raiser was holding 88 and the other caller was calling for 90% of his stack with...A3!!
I've gone over this hand a hundred times and i'm not too bothered about putting it down as i had no info at all on my opponents except the 10 or so hands i'd been at the table for.I sometimes give far too much respect to my opponents and i did have good odds to call,but my instincts were all wrong on this occasion.The 2nd caller really threw me off the hand but thats poker!
Bills explanation of the way he'd have played the hand is spot on and is exactly the way i should of played it.Still,its a mistake i won't make again thats for sure...thanks for your replies as most people seem to agree with my play(even though it was wrong!)
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
bigjace said:
(even though it was wrong!)
Don't worry about the results - worry about the line of thinking that got you to where you were.

1. AA, any K and QQ all have you drawing dead.
2. You're sensitive to any single Q or A because they might beat you on the turn or river.

Your opponents haven't done anything that smells like weakness so far, that I can see.

You would be doing an overcall.

It's close, but I'd fold.

By the way, are you buying in with $50 to a $1/$2 NL cash game? Isn't that a bit too little?
 
bigjace

bigjace

Guest
I'd been reading a article with some pro(can't remember who,may have been greenstein or harrington) about entering with low stacks.It was an interesting theory but i'm damned if i can find it(will post if i do)and to be honest the biggest stack only had around $80 so it was pretty much in proportion.
Interesting site as a lot of players are there for the sports betting exchange(which is superb) and will chase or call with garbage.
 
Bill_Hollorian

Bill_Hollorian

Rock Star
That was an interesting situation, Im glad to have my reading skills confirmed.
For the record, the fact that you have the ability to make that laydown is a tremendous asset, whether or not it worked out in this particular situation.
I believe your hand has at least a third of the pots equity there, though.

Good hand and good post,

Bill
 
holduplaya

holduplaya

Guest
Fold

I would fold because there's two callers for an significant amout of money ($60 is alot where I come from) not only that but just because i'm scared. If I happen to have like a $5000 bankroll for sure I'd call but, that ain't gonna happen. I would fold and expect a heartache but a $12 heart ache is better than a $60 one. ;)
 
V

vesipeikko

Guest
I usually fold with three of a kind in flop (unless
I have fourth). Have lost lot games when some1 has
very high pair or four of a kind.
 
S

Styrofoam

Visionary
it would have been very hard for me to lay it down, but in the end, i probably would have.
 
JRskatr

JRskatr

Guest
You should have calculated your pot odds in that situation, as well as the odds that you have the winning hand. If you were putting in $60 more to win a $200 pot, then you are getting slightly better than 3 to 1 on your money. then you have to decide what the probability is that your opponents have hands that could beat you. This is where paying attention to everyone comes into play. What other hands has that guy raised with utg in the past? if you saw him raise with 10 J suited before, you can put him on a lower probability that he has a better hand, and are more willing to call. After considering all of these things, make your call accordingly
 
R

ruffcut68

Rock Star
Awards
1
Agree Completely with JRskatr. Pay attention to your opposition but if you haven't got the info...good lay down.
 
JRskatr

JRskatr

Guest
Another thing you should consider is buying in for more than $50 at a $1/$2 table. If people see you are shortstacked they will be more inclined to bet into you, giving you more tough decisions. I like to buy in for the max amount, probably $200 in this case. then you could have called and still had about $120 left to play with, assuming your JJ was beat which it wasn't
 
S

shwingzilla

Guest
bigjace said:
Kudos to Bill and crippler on this one as you're nearly spot on.
The original utg raiser was holding 88 and the other caller was calling for 90% of his stack with...A3!!
I've gone over this hand a hundred times and i'm not too bothered about putting it down as i had no info at all on my opponents except the 10 or so hands i'd been at the table for.I sometimes give far too much respect to my opponents and i did have good odds to call,but my instincts were all wrong on this occasion.The 2nd caller really threw me off the hand but thats poker!
Bills explanation of the way he'd have played the hand is spot on and is exactly the way i should of played it.Still,its a mistake i won't make again thats for sure...thanks for your replies as most people seem to agree with my play(even though it was wrong!)

My first thought was 88. If tight players check the flop and bet the turn/river, most of the time that is exactly the card that helped them, you just have to figure out what their hand is. Why check with kings and then go all in on the turn? I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it's pretty much the height of bizarre play.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
What are you guys smoking? He has a boat on the flop and everyone checks? Make a nice size bet there, take the money and run. You just lost the pot by not making a bet. If someone has higher than you then its just another hand played and lost. You gave up the winning hand by over thinking. .
 
P

paradocks

Guest
I think you played the hand fine, sure if you made a reraise preflop you may have had more information to go on, but once the flop hit it was perfectly reasonable to check i think, youve made a boat ... theres no reason to bet people out if you have the best hand at this point, and someone made a comment about betting for information and a king will come over the top .... I really don't agree, theres not many situations I would come over the top on the flop with quad kings - theres simply no need to do so when you have everyone else drawing dead.

As you said you probably would've called had the unbelievable donk not called with A3 there, he made an absolutely pathetic beyond laughable call and you had no way to know this, had a player with a brain been in his seat he would've folded and then you probably would've called. So I wouldn't be too rough on your instincts here because they were pretty much right, when you call an allin you don't want to be relying on someone else's stupidity for you to win the pot.
 
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ihopeimakeaset

ihopeimakeaset

Enthusiast
I would've have raised a decent amount on the flop to see where I stood.
 
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