What is more profitable: Playing on sites with or without huds?

Noroma

Noroma

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For most poker players death, taxes and huds are the only certain things in life, but a new trend has formed where more and more sites have decided to ban the usage of external software on their sites. This includes sites such as those on the partypoker network and unibet.

I have a belief that playing on sites without huds can be more profitable for players willing to learn and here are my reasons.

Note: I base this on my experience with cash games and only cash games. I don't think this is true for Zoom poker, since you have no way to keep track of the whole field.


1) Learning to play without a Hud means that you will have to be an observing player. You need to understand what the other players are doing, and thus it forces you to be playing in a more active style. Note taking is not something that is sure to be consistent (in the sense that people will do weird out of character stuff which may be a one time off thing) , but the act of paying attention is a skill gained that will stick with you for the rest of your poker carreer, especially if you decide to play live.

2) You have to teach yourself how to play in a fundamentally sound way. Having a hud is good to fix your leaks, but once you learn to play in a sound way, you will naturally get to the place where most of your stats are in the correct intervals. Also, most poker sites without huds do have a built in tool you can use to see your own stats, so even though you can't use a hud you can still analyse your own leaks after the game. This is important.

3) You have a huge advantage over the field if you decide to be the active player. Without knowing the numbers, a big amount of the player pool uses huds on sites that allow it. This means you are competing with players having access to similar stats as you. The fish are still fish, but a lot more players are noticing them, and thus the player field is leveling out the advantage that you get from it. This is not the case on sites without huds. First off, a lot of regs decide not to play on sites without huds, and also no one has access to huds, therefore a lot of fish goes unnoticed. This is a big advantage that you as the active player will be able to use to your own gain.

So to recap. Playing without a hud will force you to apply strategies more on your own, this is like trying to solve a math problem, like REALLY trying to solve it, and then after you've put in the work, you look at the cheatsheet to see where you went wrong. By you doing this, and putting in the work that others aren't putting in, you will gain a significantly bigger advantage than if you put in the same work on a site which allowed huds. This is a case of the early bird getting the worm or some corny analogy that I can't think off on the spot, but that makes more sense :confused:


It will allow you to be a thinking player, which will allow you to play your A game for longer stretches of time since you are incentivised to not just go autopiloting. This is an important skill to harness, for real!

I am of course biased, since I've pretty much learned to play poker without a Hud, but I'm positive that I get a bigger advantage on sites without huds than I would on sites with huds. What do you guys think?
 
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fundiver199

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If you are not going to use a HUD yourself, then its pretty obvious, that you are better off playing on a site, where other players are not allowed to use them either. If you are using a HUD yourself (if its allowed of course), then this is giving you an advantage against those, who dont, even if thats only say 20% of the opponents at a random table. And you can also gain an edge, if you are using the HUD more effectively than your average opponent.

So in order for a non-HUD site to be more profitable, it would need to offer other advantages like softer games, better game selection, lower rake or better rewards. HUDs or non HUDs are just a small piece of the total puzzle, so I think, its really difficult to make any broad and general statements here.

When PartyPoker banned HUDs a few years ago, they made quite a bit of fuzz about it. But commercially this has not been a success for them, since they have clearly lost market share since. They used to see significantly higher volume than WPN and 888, but now they are hovering around the same (low) levels as those two sites with a massive gap up to pokerstars and GG Poker.

Poker Sites - Best Real Money Poker Sites 2021 by Live Traffic (pokerscout.com)

I actually opened an account on Partypoker a while ago intenting to give it a shot. But I never got to make a deposit, because the software seemed extremely unappealing to me. It looked like something designed 20 years ago - which most likely it was. I would be much more inclined to give GG Poker a try, but unfortunately they are not available in my market.

So I guess, I will just stick to PokerStars and 888 Poker for now, and if I am going to add a third site to the repertoire, its probably going to be ACR rather than PartyPoker. The main reason is, ACR is unregulated, and therefore I am actually allowed to play freerolls and recieve rake-back, which is not the case on the regulated sites in my market.
 
Noroma

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I mean I dislike PartyPoker a lot. I'm playing on DanskeSpil which uses the same software, but at least DanskeSpil are way more generous with the rakeback (On partypoker you have to make enough rakeback points to get to 15 -> 30 -> 45 dollars back, meaning that if you get to 40 dollars, you only get back 30. That's pretty shitty if you ask me, but thats not the case on Danskespil.

I don't want this post to turn into a this site is better than this, because this is very subjective. If I had played on only pokerstars, I'm sure my preference would point towards that direction, just like rooting for a specific sports team.

I think the point is more a general one that at least has been an advantage for me while learning to play poker, and that is that playing without a hud can give you a different skillset than playing with one does, although they eventually lead to the same goal, that is becoming better a better player. Additional to this is that becoming an advantagous player on sites without huds can have a bigger advantage against that field for this specific player, than the advantage of playing with a hud against another population of players would have.
 
Noroma

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I get what you're saying though - In the end its about achieving success in a manner that fits you the most.
 
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fundiver199

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I cant really speak from personal experience, since I started to use a HUD right away, when I began to take online poker serious and play for real money. So most of my non-HUD experience is from Zynga Poker play money games, which.... well lets not even get into that. But I can see, how it might not be benefitial for someone to use a HUD, while they are learning the fundamentals of the game. It is after all an additional layer of information, which need to be digested, and if its digested badly, it can lead to worse decisions rather than better.

You write, that a HUD is for finding your leaks, but its actually for finding your opponents leaks. The tool used to find your own leaks is the tracker, of which the HUD is only a part. And actually even some of the sites, that dont allow HUDs, still have downloadable hand histories, so you can still use the tracker to analyse your game away from the table. Which is just as important as the HUD if not even more.
 
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If you're going to grind significant volume you're likely to be better off at a site where they allow HUDs. Playing four regular tables or less it's probably not going to matter because you have enough time to pay attention as you said.

I think the most important aspect is how skilled you are in either using your HUD or picking up on player tendencies. Both are essentially just another way for you to get an edge on the opposition. If you outperform a player pool in using a HUD you're going to have a larger edge using a HUD, but if you're comparatively better at observing and exploiting a player in a data-poor environment your edge is larger on a site where they're banned.

If people want to play to win they should just play where their edge is largest. For some people that's going to be sites with a HUD, and for some sites without a HUD. It sounds like you're really thriving in the no HUD environment and that's great. However, I don't think this advice is universally applicable.
 
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arsenalcho_1

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hi

I use such programs and I dare say that it has an effect
 
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Qairo

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1. HUDs are illegal and you can be banned for using such software and lose all your money at one moment.
2. You need to pay money for using HUD. Good software costs 100$+/monthly. So, you need to win more to have any benefit. So, you will play NL5/10 or higher.
3. You don't upgrade your real poker skills by using HUD. So, you'll suck in any offline tourney.
 
H

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1. HUDs are illegal and you can be banned for using such software and lose all your money at one moment.
2. You need to pay money for using HUD. Good software costs 100$+/monthly. So, you need to win more to have any benefit. So, you will play NL5/10 or higher.
3. You don't upgrade your real poker skills by using HUD. So, you'll suck in any offline tourney.


1.
The sites that don't allow huds implement it by just not updating hand histories in real-time and the sites that allow huds it's obviously legal?
2.
No? $60 for a low stakes lifetime licence and $100 for all stakes?
3.
Sure, maybe, I guess in a small way. You'll still have to develop a strategy though. The hud only helps you by providing data on the tendencies of your opponents.
 
YuriSLopes

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1. HUDs are illegal and you can be banned for using such software and lose all your money at one moment.
2. You need to pay money for using HUD. Good software costs 100$+/monthly. So, you need to win more to have any benefit. So, you will play NL5/10 or higher.
3. You don't upgrade your real poker skills by using HUD. So, you'll suck in any offline tourney.


Where did got these infos?

Bud, I paid only once for my Tracker that has a HUD and many other functions that actually improve my game tremendously.

I practice hand reading, all kinds of odds, fix my leaks...

There's so much to it.

And if you're playing online a HUD is a must mainly if you play multi tables since it's impossible to follow every villain's actions.

Bud, I recommend you do a little research.

Even your live games could improve with it.

It's impossible to have the amount of situations per hour that you get playing multi table online, playing live.

Try it out, you'll improve for sure.
 
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fundiver199

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1. HUDs are illegal and you can be banned for using such software and lose all your money at one moment.

Several major sites like PokerStars, 888 and WPN (ACR) allow the use of third party HUDs. They are very commonly used, and this is fully accepted by those sites. On sites that dont allow HUDs, the commercially available ones like PT4 or HM2 wont even work, since the developers work with and not against the poker sites. GG Poker is a little bit special, since they have their own simple build in HUD available to all players.

2. You need to pay money for using HUD. Good software costs 100$+/monthly.
As others have already said, a program like PT4 cost 99$ for a lifetime license and others are even cheaper.

3. You don't upgrade your real poker skills by using HUD. So, you'll suck in any offline tourney.

I am pretty sure, that many of the well known high stakes pros, who have successfully transferred from online to live poker, were using HUDs, when they were playing online. In general the transition from online to live seem to work much easier for most people than the other way around. Which should perhaps be food for thought.
 
messats

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For most poker players death, taxes and huds are the only certain things in life, but a new trend has formed where more and more sites have decided to ban the usage of external software on their sites. This includes sites such as those on the PartyPoker network and Unibet.

I have a belief that playing on sites without huds can be more profitable for players willing to learn and here are my reasons.

Note: I base this on my experience with cash games and only cash games. I don't think this is true for Zoom poker, since you have no way to keep track of the whole field.


1) Learning to play without a Hud means that you will have to be an observing player. You need to understand what the other players are doing, and thus it forces you to be playing in a more active style. Note taking is not something that is sure to be consistent (in the sense that people will do weird out of character stuff which may be a one time off thing) , but the act of paying attention is a skill gained that will stick with you for the rest of your poker carreer, especially if you decide to play live.

2) You have to teach yourself how to play in a fundamentally sound way. Having a hud is good to fix your leaks, but once you learn to play in a sound way, you will naturally get to the place where most of your stats are in the correct intervals. Also, most poker sites without huds do have a built in tool you can use to see your own stats, so even though you can't use a hud you can still analyse your own leaks after the game. This is important.

3) You have a huge advantage over the field if you decide to be the active player. Without knowing the numbers, a big amount of the player pool uses huds on sites that allow it. This means you are competing with players having access to similar stats as you. The fish are still fish, but a lot more players are noticing them, and thus the player field is leveling out the advantage that you get from it. This is not the case on sites without huds. First off, a lot of regs decide not to play on sites without huds, and also no one has access to huds, therefore a lot of fish goes unnoticed. This is a big advantage that you as the active player will be able to use to your own gain.

So to recap. Playing without a hud will force you to apply strategies more on your own, this is like trying to solve a math problem, like REALLY trying to solve it, and then after you've put in the work, you look at the cheatsheet to see where you went wrong. By you doing this, and putting in the work that others aren't putting in, you will gain a significantly bigger advantage than if you put in the same work on a site which allowed huds. This is a case of the early bird getting the worm or some corny analogy that I can't think off on the spot, but that makes more sense :confused:


It will allow you to be a thinking player, which will allow you to play your A game for longer stretches of time since you are incentivised to not just go autopiloting. This is an important skill to harness, for real!

I am of course biased, since I've pretty much learned to play poker without a Hud, but I'm positive that I get a bigger advantage on sites without huds than I would on sites with huds. What do you guys think?[/QUO

having a hud does give you an advantage but not against an experienced player, this is because an experienced player knows how to play and when to change strategies, and also the always collect info which is key to overcoming tough opponents
 
Plut41

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I play on pokerstars and I feel like everyone is using his there. Just recently got myself a hud and discovered how they were exploiting some positions against me. Also it feels like PS competition is tough even at the lowest 6max cash.
 
Rockyfour

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HUD is a very powerful tool, I won't play on a site that bans them. Need every edge you can to beat the insane rake these sites charge. In Ontario where I live casinos aren't even allowed to charge rake in a cash game based on how deceptively unfair the business model is to the player.
 
Poker Orifice

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HUD is a very powerful tool, I won't play on a site that bans them. Need every edge you can to beat the insane rake these sites charge. .


But we're playing vs. the other players on the tables... not vs. the site. All sites charge rake... some more than others. Whatever sites we're able to have a higher winrate at might dictate where we choose to play (but not always).
 
Poker Orifice

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Casinos aren't even allowed to charge rake in a cash game based on how deceptively unfair the business model is to the player.


huh?

So people get to play for free? Why would they even operate for poker?

What part of Ontario? Which casinos are you referring to? (
 
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fundiver199

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In Ontario where I live Casinos aren't even allowed to charge rake in a cash game based on how deceptively unfair the business model is to the player.

If there is no rake, then for sure there is a drop (fixed amount per pot) or an hourly fee to be at a table. Live poker tends to be more expensive than online poker, since the costs of operating a live poker room is much higher than those of operating an online room.
 
VITOS

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I am categorically against it! In online poker, the issue of using hud has long caused great controversy: some operators allow players to use this tool, others strictly prohibit it. The built-in hud in the client is a compromise: on the one hand, it limits the depth of representation of data about rivals that third-party software can provide, and on the other hand, such hud allows people who do not use trackers to benefit from data collection. In poker rooms where you can't use HUD, not everything is so good from the point of view of ecology. There is a very strong argument in favor of the fact that the ban on the Move on major sites has led to an increase in the popularity of GTA games. The logic is simple: if you can't exploit your rivals, knowing their stats, the only way for you to multitable plus is to completely abandon the exploited style and switch to GTO.

And indeed, if you play GTO, then you don't really need a HUD — it will only distract you from the task. Therefore, there is logic in the fact that at high limits of those sites where the MOVE is prohibited, people play closer to GTA.
 
Rockyfour

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huh?

So people get to play for free? Why would they even operate for poker?

What part of Ontario? Which casinos are you referring to? (

All of them, they have to charge by the hour, 8$ per hr to play at the Niagra Casino.

The rake schemes in the sites aren't fair. I paid 13k of rake to PartyPoker to lose almost 2k. Once you start playing people who actually semi know what they are doing, it's a beast to over come.
 
Rockyfour

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Either way, HUD or no HUD, you will still lose if you have been losing. If a site bans a HUD you will still lose. You might think you have a better chance, but you probably don't.
 
partz

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From what I heard huds are illegal but don't take it for granted. Maybe some poker rooms accept such software.
 
quick

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I tend to play better without a HUD, although I do still take player notes where allowed. I think it's better for me and for the poker mind (especially when also switching between live play and online).

But if one is playing many tables, the HUD is very useful since hard to pay full attention to many more tables.

Also always check the site's terms and conditions before using a HUD as some , but not all, sites do not allow HUDs.
 
Plut41

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Just recently got some data and started to use it properly. Really depends on how useful it is for you. If it's not that useful that means there are people who get much more use from it so you better stick to other rooms not allowing it.
 
ChubbySin

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Fact: poker is a partial informations sport, as more informations you have, better, so once your game is cream, huds seems to make you more profitable in short and long terms.

My opinion: I like to play without huds, because I like to play live Poker as well, I respect everyone choices, I could regard to play with huds in online game, but for a moment I´ll avoid it.
 
Rockyfour

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From what I heard huds are illegal but don't take it for granted. Maybe some poker rooms accept such software.

HUD's are not illegal on most sites. Some of these sites try to neither confirm or deny if HUD's are allowed, but if you keep prodding them they usually say something like, "we would prefer that you did not use HUD's".

They do this to try and appease the anti-HUD fish and the pro-HUD regs.

Sorry for calling the anti-HUD users fish, but it's more or less true. You really need to get every edge you can to overcome the rake-trap that is online poker.
 
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