What do you consider chaseable?

DESSERTLADY

DESSERTLADY

Legend
Good evening or Good morning where ever you may find yourself today.:wavey:

I have a question some what pertaining to the thread of eliminating chasers but kind of wanted a thread for this:

What hands do you consider chaseable?
You know the line in the song the Gambler I'm sure: Every hand is a winner and every hand is a loser..... I know not every hand is hit on the flop ahhhhh maybe in a perfect world but alas we know Poker isn't perfect :icon_tong

example(Semi hypothetical) Blinds 50/100 A 9 suited Hearts......... I guess it doesn't really matter what position your in really unless there has been a raise or a reraise. For the sake of argument your 2 seats behind the button you raise to $200. 2 callers.

Flop comes : :as: :6h: :kh: BB CHECKS
YOU BET 200. DEALER CALLS, BB CALLS.

TURN COMES::8d: BB bets 400. ......... Your next to act...... You have top pair and a Nut flush draw......... is this worth the chase for another 400.? Do you call? Raise him to see if he is bluffing?
Or is time to fold and say Next........
(BTW is this hand even worth getting into if there were more than 2 callers?)

This hand didn't happen to me I made it up and maybe I made it kind of strange (it's late here and been up a long time lol) I guess what I am wondering if you had four cards to the NUTS whether it be a str8t, flush, str8t flush or even a decent two pair to maybe hit that runner for the full house is it worth it if it isn't going to kill your stack? Now I know there are many possiblities with this..(I'm just not a numbers person like I used to be)

Basically what I am asking is what's your opinion on what you chase and to what extent you will go to chase it?

I did have something similiar happen to me on AP this evening on a Omaha H/L freeroll..... I was holdng the nut str8t & str8t flush draw(which I had on the flop) I just had to see the river but it cost me quite a bit. I lost the hand but I REALLY wanted to see if I could hit that Str8t Flush.

If you can't understand this post :icon_scra I do understand since I have been up for almost 20 hours str8t and am getting ready to head to :sleep: after I finish this what I thought might be a good post when I first saw the other thread.


IrishDave, Buckster anybody HELP! I want to know and learn more about this.
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Good questions with multiple answers. First off position is VERY important on wether or not you should even be in the hand. Is the game NL or Limit? Quick point I never min raise in NL in limit your raise is about 50/50 in terms of expectation so no point in dwelling! For the sake of arguement you need to be getting 4:1 or better from the pot to continue in a 4 flush draw, pot appears to be1000 with 400 to call 5:2 pot odds don't justify chasing here, if you call, you are "laying" the odds not taking them, or in other words it is a bad bet. UNLESS you currently properly count your extra outs! In this case you are likely outkicked, up against a set, or the 8 gave your opponent 2 pair.If you think you against a set, then the flush is the only hand that wins for you and you should fold. NOW against 2 pair you have extra outs 2 aces, 3 9's, 3 6's which adds 8 additional outs to the flush draw. 46/17 to 10/4 which reduces to 2.7:1 to 2.5:1
No I admit to having drank tonight so Diablo or somebody check my math if you think he has a set fold if not fold but JUST BARELY!
 
S

StackThemUp

Guest
Hi,
By my calculations,there is 1650 in the pot and you need to call 400 giving you 4.1/1 pot odds. You have nut flush draw which you are 4/1 to hit on the river. So you have a marginal call. But you do have other outs. Depending on your opponents hands obviously. Like XD said if someone has trips then your flush draw is your only winning hand. This is where a good read would come in use. I would make this 400 call without a problem.
John

Note: I got 1650 as follows..
Blinds were 50/100 putting in 150 already. You raised 200,one caller,BB calls for 100 extra(as he has 100 in already) giving 650 preflop. You bet 200 on flop and 2 callers giving 1250 going to turn. Someone bets out 400 putting in 1650.
 
poettic1

poettic1

Guest
xdmanx007is rightin every way,exept i dont like the fold here persay(what kinda of game is it. tight, loose.) in a loose game your even money to have the best hand now, so getting 3 to 1 is great. in a tight game, send em in the muck. another point is this is a drawing hand that you limped in to get the draw, now do you follow through? no just get away. people say you cant loose what you don't put in the pot, same is true the other way.

now the open straight and flush question. it is ALWAYS ALWAYS correct to see the turn with these hands, as you are beter than even money to catch, sthen to the river you need to be 3/1 for the money 30% to win. and this should only be for a high flush/ nut strait or you can get the worst of it.


in closing i would fold, but there wasn't enough info to calibrate an acurate response.
 
fubarcdn

fubarcdn

Legend
Easy question just call. If this is in a freeroll the other guy probably has the same flush draw, an Ace with a smaller kicker or is trying to bluff you out of your top pair with some rags.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
That's a pretty strange hand. On one hand the 8d is a very strange card to bluff at, on the other hand that sort of flop is not the sort of flop you want to slowplay. That said he's only betting 1/3 pot, which you can either interpret as weakness or trying to induce a raise from the person who bet out on the flop (you). I think you're probably behind here and the 8 has helped him - I see BB most likely holding an A8/88 which he's underbet horribly, in which case you have a draw to any heart barring 8h, any 9 if he has A8, or any K barring Kh (again if he has A8) for a split. Barring A8/88, I happily slap him on a huge range of hands, from absolutely nothing to any two other hearts to 66 (assuming this is a low buyin game and the player is poor - I'm assuming this because this weird play suggests he is). Assuming relatively deep stacks I call here and fold to a big (>3/4pot) river bet unless I hit a heart or an A on the river.

If he 'bluffs' on the turn like this often, a reraise is fine, a push if you don't have a big stack. If he does have the goods, well you have outs.

Basically in situations like this:

- Assess the pot odds and implied odds you're getting (pot odds are good in the above example, implied odds are poor as any heart or A will probably be a scare card to him)
- Assess the chances you're ahead at the moment (possible but not likely in the above).
- Assess how many total outs you have (9 hearts, 2 aces, 2 other sixes, 2 other kings, 2 other 8s, 2 other 9s in the above - 19 total), and how many of these are likely to be good (8 hearts, possibly 9 (the 8h is questionable) and possibly 2 aces - 7-11 total).
- Assess what you will do if villain (a) bets big (usually fold), (b) bets small (usually call), and (c) checks (usually check) the river if you call now and don't hit a good out. I say "usually" because you could have certain reads that make straying from the "usuals" a good idea.
 
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bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
If I got the hand you described my bet would be allin. You have top pair and a flush draw. What more do you want?
 
jeterkid925

jeterkid925

Guest
bubbasbestbabe said:
If I got the hand you described my bet would be allin. You have top pair and a flush draw. What more do you want?
I know, I dont worry about pot odds, I think, can My hand beat his, if I have a good chance to hit a draw in order to get a better hand then he does, then yes I'm gonna raise him go all in.
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Shew... For being intoxicated I got it alot closer that I should have. Except I missed an ENTIRE betting round:ciao: pot numbers we off and Stack properly corrected them ty 4 that, was hoping somebody would :)
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
In a non-hypothetical situation, you may also have some kind of read on the other player that will help you decide. Against an undisciplined player, I'm far more likely to be aggressive with this hand than against a rock.
 
Bill_Hollorian

Bill_Hollorian

Rock Star
Ok you are 2 seats BEHIND the button? That makes you the Big blind. I hope cardschatters are not min raising out of the big blind with A9 suited. But lets say you smoked crack, and don't like money and decided to do this. You are now in a situation where a few senarios can happen on the flop.
1.) A 9 is the highest card on the flop. You have top pair top kicker!, Oh but really all you have is a pair of nines...
2.) An Ace hits, like in the example above, but your kicker is no good! So you hit your top pair, and still put yourself on a drawing hand. Which means you raised feeling that your Ace was probably dominated, thats why crack is required pre flop.
3.) You hit some stupid random nuts flop like AAA, or 999. or AA9, or 99A. B ut alas fish hope to hit such flops.
You have a few current problems.
1.) Your out of position.
2.) Your made hand can,t be bet, because it is probably second best to whoever calls you.
3.) If someone min raises out of the big blind, when the AK falls, everyone should fold.
So you risked a min raise preflop, got a decent flop and get no action.
4.) Technically your hand is now made...not drawing. But you realize it needs to improve to a nut flsuh to win, cardschatters this is losing poker... do not allow yourself in to these situations. This is for the other guy.
5.) The solution is to fold, or raise. You are the leader pre flop. A continuation raise of 75% of the pot gives you fold equity. It should also get your checks on later streets respected, hopefully you can pull 1 or 2 more cards off for free, chasing your dreams.

I could go on forever,
Folding pre flop is best.
Since you raise, you have falsely given yourself "odds to call" on the flop. Ie. rasie 100 preflop and get 1 caller. whe he bets a dollar you are getting 100-1, you should call because no hand is a 100 to 1 dog in poker ( the crack logic).
Raising on the flop gives you an extra way to win, by representing what you had pre flop, AK. If you raise they can fold. If you call they dont have to and they can win.
It could also get you the free cards later...

Stacks, Your math is right, but there is huge eve being given up everywhere in this hand. Sometimes you can win withou the cards... This is a perfect situation. Raising preflop and then calling post flop is horrible advice.
1.) I would laugh and fold if the flush hit on the turn. I would push you all in if it didnt.
Your advice maximises loss and risk, and minimizes your win. I am surprised at your advice here...where am I wrong?

Respectfully,
Bill
 
T

Theocpoker

Guest
Raise. Try to force him out. Even if he wasn't bluffing he might have 2 hearts (of course lower than your kicker). If he has 2 hearts you have him beat. They could have caught their trips with a pocket pair, but I doubt that.
 
DESSERTLADY

DESSERTLADY

Legend
Okay all,

I told you I wasn't bright eyed and bushy tailed when I wrote this thread.
I left some key issues out of the hand. I apologize for this. I will rethink this hand and repost in a few days.

Bill, I know I haven't been playing long, only around a year and half for Holdem' can you lay out the seating for me? Maybe I have been confused for a long while now on this.
Thanks for the help ya'll! :wavey:
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
I would call or raise. Even though you don't have the flush draw yet, you still have top pair.
 
~~Shelynn~~

~~Shelynn~~

Legend
Looks like the cards I get a lot of, LOL, but I think I would check and see what others do and if it's raise and re-raise,think I would fold. Been busted to many times high carded and I don't care for that.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Bill, I don't think you've recovered from that batchelor party. Your advice seems to be based on the assumption that Dessertlady is in early position. The BB you say? Where did that come from? The way I see it she was UTG + 4 at a full table. The table folded around to her she opened the pot with min raise with A9 suited hoping to gain position. The button called, what are you going to do. The BB called. She is out of position only to the button. There's 650 in the pot.

The button checks the flop. Lady has top pair and a flush draw and no reason yet to think she's not ahead in the hand. She lead out pre-flop so a continuation bet was in order. 200 was a little weak and could be seen as a stab by anyone with a King or another Ace. 1/2 the pot would have been about right. Alarm bells should have gone off however when the BB called and then raised on the turn.

But the question you put forth has nothing to do with how you got here. Your probably behind in the hand and you know it. There's 1650 in the pot and it only costs you 400. As Stack and XD said your getting exactly the 4:1 odds you need to make this call with 2 cards to come. But you don't have 2 to come. You need 5:1 odds to call the turn. Your not quite there but your implied pot odds could put you over the top. There is also a small chance that your Ace is good and the 2 remaining 9's (not hearts) could be outs.

This one's a coin toss.
 
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diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
How did I miss this the first time around?

Oh well, I'm not going in for sloppy seconds on this one...too many have been here already.
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

Guest
jeterkid925 said:
I know, I dont worry about pot odds, I think, can My hand beat his, if I have a good chance to hit a draw in order to get a better hand then he does, then yes I'm gonna raise him go all in.
How many $thousands are you up?
 
J

j1a1m1

Guest
yea in my opinion after the flop, the bet was kinda small to begin with it is asking for some callers, a bigger bet say pot size might have taken it down there. After that your only option is raise or fold, a call here would only show weakness and the fact that you are chasing.

by the way crippler what is a good chance how is that calculated if not in relation to the size of the pot vs the bet size? 1 out of 4 , 1 out of 10? what exactly is a "good chance"?
 
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V

VegasGrinder

Guest
It depends on the type of player you are up against. The Bet size is wierd. If he had a Hand, most would bet atleast the pot to give bad pot odds to any flush draws and make them have to fold.

That size bet is what is called a continuation bet. Meaning he wants you to call and build a pot. But the only hand that wopuld be worth making a continuation bet with is yours. If I did not have a read on him yet, Being that you have Top pair and the nut flush draw, I would beleave he is a weak player that has a hand but maybe a weak kicker or 2nd pair. I would definately call and even consider coming over the Top. If he calls, you still have 9 to 14 outs.
 
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