VPIP at Limpy Table?

ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Hi guys. My stats for tables where there are many limpers is 30/23, is this bad or am I adjusting appropriately for this? This is 6 max.

The large gap between vpip and pfr is because I overlimp a lot of small pairs and suited connectors. I'm never open limping though.
 
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eetenor

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Hi guys. My stats for tables where there are many limpers is 32/23, is this bad or am I adjusting appropriately for this? This is 6 max.

The large gap between vpip and pfr is because I overlimp a lot of small pairs and suited connectors. I'm never open limping though.



Thank U 4 Posting.

When we play we want to stack players not win hands.

The key here is to think about what happens after the limp.
So if you get limps and you raise in POS is it a passive calling table or a folding table?
Is there bluffing or aggressive betting post flop?
Are you able to steal pots post flop or get stacks in vs weak hands?

If you are on a passive but folds to raises limping table we want to open limp most of our low suited AX. We want to trap the villain in the SB who will complete with 73 of our suit but will fold it to a raise.

Why?

The obvious is flush over flush could get us stacks but also if we raise and get called Top pair on flop is not great for us. We often have to pot control and even if we make 2 pair we still have to fear larger 2 pairs.

So if we limp we can get stacks or lose 1 BB but if we raise we can win small amounts or lose large amounts.

Again limping is about post flop play more than hand selection preflop.

As to suited connectors you limp 8s7s your villains are limping AX KX QX JX 10X of spades with you. if you are not strong post flop that is a disaster. I would be 3 betting to get heads up with hands like 98 87 76 suited. As above many villains will be folding really weak flush draws J2 Q3. That is if they fold at all. So again you have to know what your villains do when raised and post flop, after they call.

There is a lot to think about when using a limping strategy because you have to know what you are going to do post flop.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
ventrolloquist

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Thanks for the feedback. It's basically a bunch of pot committed limpers who will call my steals 70% of the time so I only steal vs 2 limpers with hands that have both good implied odds and good showdown value. I'm wondering if I should raise or lower my vpip (overlimping frequency). As for limpers limping high broadway cards, the way I see it if the flop hits my implied odds hands and they call my shove with an overpair or broadway pair then I'm golden. I'm not sure that's something I should be worried about? And if those limpers raise broadways then they are just capping their ranges. Postflop many of them are draw chasing stations that give up on river. I wonder if my vpip should be even higher. To sum it up. They overcall preflop, undercall dry boards postflop, and overcall wet boards regardless of odds and don't bluff reraise much.
 
Aballinamion

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Cash limping

Hi guys. My stats for tables where there are many limpers is 30/23, is this bad or am I adjusting appropriately for this? This is 6 max.

The large gap between vpip and pfr is because I overlimp a lot of small pairs and suited connectors. I'm never open limping though.

Hi there ventrolloquist, how are you today? Thank you a lot for sharing your doubts. Let me trynna help you.
I don't know which strategy is best for 6-Max games, although exist some consensus that limping too much isn't profitable in the long run. (either open-limping or limp-calling)
Many players use HUD profile, so it is easy to spot a player who is limping too much, specially out of position. There is a stat named Call Open, where we can adjust and put a pop-up to perceive the % of times players are limping/calling x position.
It seems that you are limping quite a bit, because 30% it's a huge number. Try to observe how much you are limping versus position. Example: Limp-call from MP, CO, BTN and SB.
When we limp too much we start to be exploited for value:
For instance, if you open-limp/limp-call 22-66 from UTG or MP, and a player in position raises your limp 5x are you inclined to defend your pocket pair in a high frequency? Maybe not.
When I see that a player limps and calls raise a lot(60% limp-calling versus raisor or more), I will put a 6x, 7, 10x raise preflop to put the player in very hard spot.
There was one hand where I see the limper use to call versus raisor 88%! So, I had AA and raised versus limper 18x preflop, and the player called with 66. Flop comes A6K I bet 2/3 pot and the player shoves all-in and I insta-called (sweet).
Let's assume you limp-trap AA, KK and AK. Nobody raises and the BB checks. Comes a flop 357 rainbow, BB checks and you bet 1/3 pot. BB now check-raises you to 3.3x, it is an easy call and we see a turn: another 3 in the turn and the player in the BB bets 3/4 pots, are you comfortable at all with your AA, KK and AK? Maybe not too.

What is the REAL problem of limping in Cash Tables?

A) By limping you are leaving the initiative behind, you are losing a fair chunk of equity preflop.

B) By limping we cannot represent anything postflop.

C) By limping we are just praying to hit your hand postflop or fold, because we have no initiave.

D) By limping, we open doors to create high variance spots, and huge reverse implied odds scenarios, where we are going to play with players that are hard to leave their equities postflops, multiway pot. We are not going to make a lot of value playing 3-handed pots, 4-handed pots, etc. By raising preflop we also avoid that many players enter into the pot, turning our equity and playability confuse. (hard)

A very decent LAG player will have stats of 28/24/3.5 at a 6-Max table (5000 hands sample) depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A TAG player will have stats of 20/16/3 depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A NIT player will have stats between 18/14/3 or 15/12/2 varying of how passive or aggresive the player is.
Sorry to say like this, but stats of 30/23 with AF under 3 or above 3.5, it is the fish...
A player who will be exploited to death at the tables. We don't want to open doors for our adversaries tear us apart.
If you have a good hand open the hand, so you will have initiative postflop. If you see a good hand but it is scared about being 3-betted or get too many callers, don't open! Simple and plain, don't open 100% of your combos or you are going to lose money.

You said that you limp-behind when some other player limped? It is the same of limping IMO.

Here are some topics on the matter: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/open-limping-it-so-bad-233455/

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/a-preflop-question-is-limping-lame-27755.htm

https://upswingpoker.com/limps-poker-open-limpers-strategy/

I hope it helps you Nick! Have a nice day, and remember: life can be beautiful :love:

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Hi there ventrolloquist, how are you today? Thank you a lot for sharing your doubts. Let me trynna help you.
I don't know which strategy is best for 6-Max games, although exist some consensus that limping too much isn't profitable in the long run. (either open-limping or limp-calling)
Many players use HUD profile, so it is easy to spot a player who is limping too much, specially out of position. There is a stat named Call Open, where we can adjust and put a pop-up to perceive the % of times players are limping/calling x position.
It seems that you are limping quite a bit, because 30% it's a huge number. Try to observe how much you are limping versus position. Example: Limp-call from MP, CO, BTN and SB.
When we limp too much we start to be exploited for value:
For instance, if you open-limp/limp-call 22-66 from UTG or MP, and a player in position raises your limp 5x are you inclined to defend your pocket pair in a high frequency? Maybe not.
When I see that a player limps and calls raise a lot(60% limp-calling versus raisor or more), I will put a 6x, 7, 10x raise preflop to put the player in very hard spot.
There was one hand where I see the limper use to call versus raisor 88%! So, I had AA and raised versus limper 18x preflop, and the player called with 66. Flop comes A6K I bet 2/3 pot and the player shoves all-in and I insta-called (sweet).
Let's assume you limp-trap AA, KK and AK. Nobody raises and the BB checks. Comes a flop 357 rainbow, BB checks and you bet 1/3 pot. BB now check-raises you to 3.3x, it is an easy call and we see a turn: another 3 in the turn and the player in the BB bets 3/4 pots, are you comfortable at all with your AA, KK and AK? Maybe not too.

What is the REAL problem of limping in Cash Tables?

A) By limping you are leaving the initiative behind, you are losing a fair chunk of equity preflop.

B) By limping we cannot represent anything postflop.

C) By limping we are just praying to hit your hand postflop or fold, because we have no initiave.

D) By limping, we open doors to create high variance spots, and huge reverse implied odds scenarios, where we are going to play with players that are hard to leave their equities postflops, multiway pot. We are not going to make a lot of value playing 3-handed pots, 4-handed pots, etc. By raising preflop we also avoid that many players enter into the pot, turning our equity and playability confuse. (hard)

A very decent LAG player will have stats of 28/24/3.5 at a 6-Max table (5000 hands sample) depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A TAG player will have stats of 20/16/3 depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A NIT player will have stats between 18/14/3 or 15/12/2 varying of how passive or aggresive the player is.
Sorry to say like this, but stats of 30/23 with AF under 3 or above 3.5, it is the fish...
A player who will be exploited to death at the tables. We don't want to open doors for our adversaries tear us apart.
If you have a good hand open the hand, so you will have initiative postflop. If you see a good hand but it is scared about being 3-betted or get too many callers, don't open! Simple and plain, don't open 100% of your combos or you are going to lose money.

You said that you limp-behind when some other player limped? It is the same of limping IMO.

Here are some topics on the matter: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/open-limping-it-so-bad-233455/

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/a-preflop-question-is-limping-lame-27755.htm

https://upswingpoker.com/limps-poker-open-limpers-strategy/

I hope it helps you Nick! Have a nice day, and remember: life can be beautiful :love:

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Hi Carlos. I'm well, thanks for the reply and the feedback. As always it's really appreciated :).

I never actually open limp lol. Only over-limp small pairs in any position (and not call a raise unless the odds are good), and overlimo connectors in position. For pairs if I do not hit a set I give up, if I do I am playing for stacks. For suited connectors it depends on the flop but I do not play weak connectors out of position. An overlimp gives me a cheap price. And this table just had multiway pots 70% of the time.

I also don't overlimp if I expect a steal to my left.

But I don't overcall opens, if someone open raises I play a very tight range and fold more often than not. I also fold often vs. limper + steal.

Maybe the vpip ended up being high because the original hand sample is only 400 hands.

As for the pfr, I played another session and now the pfr is 19 so I think I was just getting good hands in the first session which inflated my pfr.

So basically I did everything I outlined above and my vpip ended up being high. I thought I was playing in a theoretically sound way for multiway pots tbh. Because steals weren't working very effectively I chose to limp behind more.

Thanks for the advice again :)
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Hi there ventrolloquist, how are you today? Thank you a lot for sharing your doubts. Let me trynna help you.
I don't know which strategy is best for 6-Max games, although exist some consensus that limping too much isn't profitable in the long run. (either open-limping or limp-calling)
Many players use HUD profile, so it is easy to spot a player who is limping too much, specially out of position. There is a stat named Call Open, where we can adjust and put a pop-up to perceive the % of times players are limping/calling x position.
It seems that you are limping quite a bit, because 30% it's a huge number. Try to observe how much you are limping versus position. Example: Limp-call from MP, CO, BTN and SB.
When we limp too much we start to be exploited for value:
For instance, if you open-limp/limp-call 22-66 from UTG or MP, and a player in position raises your limp 5x are you inclined to defend your pocket pair in a high frequency? Maybe not.
When I see that a player limps and calls raise a lot(60% limp-calling versus raisor or more), I will put a 6x, 7, 10x raise preflop to put the player in very hard spot.
There was one hand where I see the limper use to call versus raisor 88%! So, I had AA and raised versus limper 18x preflop, and the player called with 66. Flop comes A6K I bet 2/3 pot and the player shoves all-in and I insta-called (sweet).
Let's assume you limp-trap AA, KK and AK. Nobody raises and the BB checks. Comes a flop 357 rainbow, BB checks and you bet 1/3 pot. BB now check-raises you to 3.3x, it is an easy call and we see a turn: another 3 in the turn and the player in the BB bets 3/4 pots, are you comfortable at all with your AA, KK and AK? Maybe not too.

What is the REAL problem of limping in Cash Tables?

A) By limping you are leaving the initiative behind, you are losing a fair chunk of equity preflop.

B) By limping we cannot represent anything postflop.

C) By limping we are just praying to hit your hand postflop or fold, because we have no initiave.

D) By limping, we open doors to create high variance spots, and huge reverse implied odds scenarios, where we are going to play with players that are hard to leave their equities postflops, multiway pot. We are not going to make a lot of value playing 3-handed pots, 4-handed pots, etc. By raising preflop we also avoid that many players enter into the pot, turning our equity and playability confuse. (hard)

A very decent LAG player will have stats of 28/24/3.5 at a 6-Max table (5000 hands sample) depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A TAG player will have stats of 20/16/3 depending how passive or aggressive the player is.
A NIT player will have stats between 18/14/3 or 15/12/2 varying of how passive or aggresive the player is.
Sorry to say like this, but stats of 30/23 with AF under 3 or above 3.5, it is the fish...
A player who will be exploited to death at the tables. We don't want to open doors for our adversaries tear us apart.
If you have a good hand open the hand, so you will have initiative postflop. If you see a good hand but it is scared about being 3-betted or get too many callers, don't open! Simple and plain, don't open 100% of your combos or you are going to lose money.

You said that you limp-behind when some other player limped? It is the same of limping IMO.

Here are some topics on the matter: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/open-limping-it-so-bad-233455/

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/a-preflop-question-is-limping-lame-27755.htm

https://upswingpoker.com/limps-poker-open-limpers-strategy/

I hope it helps you Nick! Have a nice day, and remember: life can be beautiful :love:

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
Thanks for the articles. These are eye openers. Didn't realize limping behind was such a major leak.

What I've taken from this is not to limp behind vs one limper and maybe limp behind vs. multiple limpers.
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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So I think I've found justification for my ridiculous VPIP for this session.

Article-45-Figure-3.png


This is the over-limp or raise range vs. 2 sticky limpers in front, which is exactly what I encountered. You could try to iso raise them all day but they still want to see a flop. I think that explains my crazy high VPIP for that session lol (that and the tiny hand sample).

If anyone is curious this is from the following article by Pete Clarke https://www.pokerstarsschool.com/st...tage-of-poker-players-that-limp-preflop/1267/
 
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eetenor

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Thanks for the articles. These are eye openers. Didn't realize limping behind was such a major leak.

What I've taken from this is not to limp behind vs one limper and maybe limp behind vs. multiple limpers.



Thank U 4 Posting.

Did you happen to notice the part of the pokernews article which spoke about loose vegas games? They recommended limping.

Why?

Fold frequency vs raise frequency of loose passive players.

So when we consider whether we should limp or not online that is what we should know about our player pool. Do they play like the live game or do they play like the online games described in the data in the article?

Table by table changes in villain behavior is not uncommon online.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Thank U 4 Posting.

Did you happen to notice the part of the pokernews article which spoke about loose vegas games? They recommended limping.

Why?

Fold frequency vs raise frequency of loose passive players.

So when we consider whether we should limp or not online that is what we should know about our player pool. Do they play like the live game or do they play like the online games described in the data in the article?

Table by table changes in villain behavior is not uncommon online.

Hope this helps
:):)
Thanks Eetenor :). Do you have the link to the article by any chance please? Also, do you mean open limping or limping behind? I see a lot of regs in low stakes tournaments open limp sometimes, and even some at NL10.
 
E

eetenor

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Thanks for the feedback. It's basically a bunch of pot committed limpers who will call my steals 70% of the time so I only steal vs 2 limpers with hands that have both good implied odds and good showdown value. I'm wondering if I should raise or lower my vpip (overlimping frequency). As for limpers limping high broadway cards, the way I see it if the flop hits my implied odds hands and they call my shove with an overpair or broadway pair then I'm golden. I'm not sure that's something I should be worried about? And if those limpers raise broadways then they are just capping their ranges. Postflop many of them are draw chasing stations that give up on river. I wonder if my vpip should be even higher. To sum it up. They overcall preflop, undercall dry boards postflop, and overcall wet boards regardless of odds and don't bluff reraise much.



Thank U 4 Responding.

You are in a great situation as described above. You have to love it when villains only play back at you with their best hands.

So your first adjustment to their limp calling frequency is perfect. Just remember to take notes on who will fold and not just start playing all players equally.

For instance: if you have 2 players one will fold the other will not fold to a raise, you always want to isolate the caller so you can play heads up vs 1 weak player. Dependent on your hand range.

Your over limping frequency should be high vs weak post flop players. If your post flop play is superior. Many players however over limp the wrong hands. Do not start over limping hands that are easily dominated. A7 off K9 off. Unless of course your villains fold a high percentage post flop. The reason for over limping is the big money is made post flop and if we are better than our villains we want to get post flop as much as we can as cheaply as we can. With the right range of hands.

I am confused by this statement could you clarify.


"As for limpers limping high broadway cards, the way I see it if the flop hits my implied odds hands and they call my shove with an overpair or broadway pair then I'm golden. I'm not sure that's something I should be worried about?"

Below is an example of how broadway cards are dangerous for some of our limps.

Example villain 1 limps AJoff villain 2 limps KdQd we limp J9off in position

Flop J d10d 8c

As you can see from that combination of hands we are near dead to win yet it appears we have good equity. J9 off has 9% equity

So when villains are limping good broadway hands over limping any weak paint hands K5 suited Q9 off etc becomes very dangerous for our equity return.



Hope this helps
:):)
 
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GWU73

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I recommend pulling the unsuited hands out of your range except when opening in late position. It's hard to win enough to make those hands profitable. As far as over calling often, I do it alot. Post flop is where the real game is played.
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Thank U 4 Responding.

You are in a great situation as described above. You have to love it when villains only play back at you with their best hands.

So your first adjustment to their limp calling frequency is perfect. Just remember to take notes on who will fold and not just start playing all players equally.

For instance: if you have 2 players one will fold the other will not fold to a raise, you always want to isolate the caller so you can play heads up vs 1 weak player. Dependent on your hand range.

Your over limping frequency should be high vs weak post flop players. If your post flop play is superior. Many players however over limp the wrong hands. Do not start over limping hands that are easily dominated. A7 off K9 off. Unless of course your villains fold a high percentage post flop. The reason for over limping is the big money is made post flop and if we are better than our villains we want to get post flop as much as we can as cheaply as we can. With the right range of hands.

I am confused by this statement could you clarify.


"As for limpers limping high broadway cards, the way I see it if the flop hits my implied odds hands and they call my shove with an overpair or broadway pair then I'm golden. I'm not sure that's something I should be worried about?"

Below is an example of how broadway cards are dangerous for some of our limps.

Example villain 1 limps AJoff villain 2 limps KdQd we limp J9off in position

Flop J d10d 8c

As you can see from that combination of hands we are near dead to win yet it appears we have good equity. J9 off has 9% equity

So when villains are limping good broadway hands over limping any weak paint hands K5 suited Q9 off etc becomes very dangerous for our equity return.



Hope this helps
:):)
Thanks for the detailed advice, much appreciated Eetenor :).

To clarify what I meant. If a limper limps with a Broadway, and I call with a hand like 44 (an implied odds hand because it has no showdown value unless it hits a set), and the board come K74 rainbow. Then I will easily take his whole stack. Especially when 2 limpers come along since then it's likely one of them will hit a board like that if they limp their broadways.

Also I'm not sure why I said shove. I wouldn't shove here unless it's a donkey tournament lol.

But from my experience many limpers raise better broadway hands. So when they limp they cap their range.

As a side note, my favorite are limpers who fold to steals too often.
 
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Evan Jarvis

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Hi guys. My stats for tables where there are many limpers is 30/23, is this bad or am I adjusting appropriately for this? This is 6 max.

The large gap between vpip and pfr is because I overlimp a lot of small pairs and suited connectors. I'm never open limping though.


If the opponents will pay off postflop overlimping is not a bad strategy at all. If you don't have the build the pot preflop to have high implied odds postflop why bother?

That said, in games like this where they call your raises a lot, try raising really big with your tight range of hands and continuing to overlimp the rest (I think this is a fine strategy)


When a table is playing extra loose it's fine to adjust by playing a few more hands (as long as you're still playing better hands than they are on average you'll expect to turn a profit right?)

And always just pay attention to where the aggressive players are and the likelihood of getting 3-bet or playing out of position when you do inflate the size of the pot preflop.

Balance these ideas with the ideas you found in those articles and I think you'll do great!

 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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Thanks Evan! I really appreciate your feedback [emoji5] .

It's good to hear overlimping is a usable approach.

I was wondering if you would still overlimp as many hands in tournaments? I tend to avoid overlimping suited connectors in EP, and also try to avoid overlimping suited connectors in cash games nowadays unless it's multiway.

Will check your videos out when I'm home. Thanks :)
 
Vallet

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I recommend pulling the unsuited hands out of your range except when opening in late position. It's hard to win enough to make those hands profitable. As far as over calling often, I do it alot. Post flop is where the real game is played.
It's like you read my mind. I would like to add. Limp can be used if there are very aggressive players after you. I use the limp-reraise option with strong QQ or AA hands.
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

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It's like you read my mind. I would like to add. Limp can be used if there are very aggressive players after you. I use the limp-reraise option with strong QQ or AA hands.


Definitely one of my favorite stunts to pull off :p
 
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