uNL Cash Games Study Group, vol. 2

[acky100]

wouldnt leading possibly induce a raise and then we've made more than just raising the regs c bet ourselves?

 

[_dogmeat]

wouldnt leading possibly induce a raise and then we've made more than just raising the regs c bet ourselves?

How often do you raise a lead with air in a MW pot?

 

[acky100]

He doesnt need to have air and if he does he may not respect our donk on a dry board plus theres a fish in the hand who's more than likely going to call anyways and if we just check raised a cbet off the reg we would make less and maybe give our strength away? Not sure if im right its something that ive never done much but, our goal is to get as much money in with the fish anyways so i like the sound of this move.

 

[_dogmeat]

wouldnt leading possibly induce a raise and then we've made more than just raising the regs c bet ourselves?

He doesnt need to have air and if he does he may not respect our donk on a dry board plus theres a fish in the hand who's more than likely going to call anyways and if we just check raised a cbet off the reg we would make less and maybe give our strength away? Not sure if im right its something that ive never done much but, our goal is to get as much money in with the fish anyways so i like the sound of this move.

You're looking at it all wrong, imo.
First, if there's a fish behind the reg, I'm not really sure he'd cbet with too wide of a range.
Second, I really doubt he'll raise our donk too wide, with the fish behind him (that'll probably call the raise)
Third, we're donking not because we're going to get raised, but because the reg isn't as likely to cbet in a MW pot, so we're getting more value from the fish.

 

[acky100]

meh, im confused to what situation we're actually even on about now, i thought you were confident that the reg would c-bet before? Anyways just been reading vanquishes motives for the donk lead and its something i dont do much so i am going to start.

 

[_dogmeat]

meh, im confused to what situation we're actually even on about now, i thought you were confident that the reg would c-bet before? Anyways just been reading vanquishes motives for the donk lead and its something i dont do much so i am going to start.

Yeah, I probably didn't really make myself clear.

The reg is going to cbet most of the time in a HU pot. This is not a good spot to donk, except if you think he's really aggro and would raise you.

The reg is not going to cbet that much in a MW pot with a fish to act behind him, so this is a good spot to donk and get the most value out of the fish.

 

[JOEBOB69]

for sure, if there's a 70/0 or w/e, he's never gonna actually bet (i love that people exist that just never ever bet or raise under any circumstance), so it's up to you to get the money in

Don't understand VAN so the fish never raises he would be calling the regs raise instead of raising his self.If we are donk betting in this situation we are OOP regs in the middle so we check he C-bets fish calls we CR(in a muti way pot that is).Am i wrong or missing something here?

 

[_dogmeat]

Don't understand VAN so the fish never raises he would be calling the regs raise instead of raising his self.If we are donk betting in this situation we are OOP regs in the middle so we check he C-bets fish calls we CR(in a muti way pot that is).Am i wrong or missing something here?

If you're sure the reg is going to cbet in a MW pot with a fish to act behind him, sure. But most regs won't cbet as much in that spot, so what c9 and vanq are saying is that you're better of just donk betting in the first place.

 

[JOEBOB69]

If you're sure the reg is going to cbet in a MW pot with a fish to act behind him, sure. But most regs won't cbet as much in that spot, so what c9 and vanq are saying is that you're better of just donk betting in the first place.

I understand that but most "regs"at our micro limits are going to c-bet ever flop 80% of the time no matter what position no matter what the flop texture is am i wrong?This thread is for micro play am i right?

 

[Cafeman]

I understand that but most "regs"at our micro limits are going to c-bet ever flop 80% of the time no matter what position no matter what the flop texture is am i wrong?This thread is for micro play am i right?

Not in my experience (10nl 6max) - unless of course they have a hand.

 

[TylerN]

can somebody please define a "reg" at micros. I think some of u guys are giving them way too much credit

 

[_dogmeat]

can somebody please define a "reg" at micros. I think some of u guys are giving them way too much credit

Someone like me and you

 

[TylerN]

and how many people like "us" are in these limits? I'm just saying the avg reg in the micros is not going to be as in depth thinking as your suggesting

 

[_dogmeat]

and how many people like "us" are in these limits? I'm just saying the avg reg in the micros is not going to be as in depth thinking as your suggesting

Imo even the worst players know that when they're up against multiple villains they shouldn't get too frisky with air. Other than that, you might be right.

 

[LuckyChippy]

Fair enough to a certain extent, but it's difficult to truly treat it as if they had checked. I think I know what you mean - if you would have normally bet then bet as if he did nothing. Fine, but apart from that, once he's donked into you, you can't actually check. You have to fold, call or raise. And that's the issue being discussed. Unless you are meaning to say that calling the mindonk is the same as checking? If so, then I'm not sure I agree for the reasons outlined above.

We raise 3bb OTB called by villain in the BB. 1.5bb + 3bb + 2bb = 6.5bb. Villain min donks 1bb, we're getting 7.5 to 1 with position against an obvious fish who has no idea what he wants to do with the hand he has. Act as if he had checked and play accordingly, yes, us calling = checking.

 

[_dogmeat]

Just a couple of hands that gave me some trouble during my last sesh:

Villain's a fish

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($8.07)
BB ($12.06)
UTG ($12.41)
MP ($5.25)
Hero (CO) ($5)
Button ($5)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K:club:, Q:club:
1 fold, MP calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.22, 2 folds, BB calls $0.17, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.51) 7:club:, 7:diamond:, K:spade: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.40, BB calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.31) 3:spade: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, BB calls $1

River: ($3.31) 6:heart: (2 players)
BB bets $3.31, Hero???


Here, CO is a fish and SB is a TAG

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($7.84)
CO ($15.86)
Button ($5)
SB ($5.86)
Hero (BB) ($5.05)
UTG ($5)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q:spade:, Q:club:
2 folds, CO bets $0.17, 1 fold, SB calls $0.15, Hero raises to $0.68, CO calls $0.51, SB calls $0.51

Flop: ($2.04) 2:spade:, 8:heart:, 9:club: (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($2.04) J:club: (3 players)
SB bets $1.42, Hero calls $1.42, CO calls $1.42

River: ($6.30) 2:diamond: (3 players)
SB bets $3.76 (All-In), Hero???


The second hand, I guess the SB has a set of Jacks. What else could he have here and be so aggressive on the turn and river? KK and AA he's 3betting PF, and it's very unlikely he has QQ. I also don't think QT is a possibility, given how the PF action went.

 

[Madmansam]

Hand 1 looks like a fold. Fish love to slowplay and why else would he bet the river unless he had a 7? There aren't any draws on the flop and I doubt he would float you twice with small pp or AJ or something and turn his hand into a bluff. Bad players almost never turn weak hands into bluffs because they are trying to get to showdown. I doubt he would even do this with KJ. AK is probably a reraise preflop. Unless you have a read about villain taking weird bluffing lines, this looks like a fold to me.

 

[Madmansam]

Second hand is tough because you played your hand so deceptively (poorly maybe). Why check the flop? As far as small blinds range, he could have any pair from 88-JJ, giving him a set or OESD. By checking back the flop, he may have put you on AK and value bet 77 or 1010? This is a real tough spot and table dynamics would have to be considered too. Had you been squeezing a lot from the blinds? I'm interested in what everyone else thinks about this hand.

 

[_dogmeat]

Second hand is tough because you played your hand so deceptively (poorly maybe). Why check the flop? As far as small blinds range, he could have any pair from 88-JJ, giving him a set or OESD. By checking back the flop, he may have put you on AK and value bet 77 or 1010? This is a real tough spot and table dynamics would have to be considered too. Had you been squeezing a lot from the blinds? I'm interested in what everyone else thinks about this hand.

Yeah, I agree that I played the hand poorly on the flop. I should have bet, since SB's range is somewhat wide post-flop. Although I really doubt it he'd call with anything less than TT. Maybe some of the suited broadways, although it's a really small part of his range.

 

[Madmansam]

Second hand is tough because you played your hand so deceptively (poorly maybe). Why check the flop? As far as small blinds range, he could have any pair from 88-JJ, giving him a set or OESD. By checking back the flop, he may have put you on AK and value bet 77 or 1010? This is a real tough spot and table dynamics would have to be considered too. Had you been squeezing a lot from the blinds? I'm interested in what everyone else thinks about this hand.

 

[billdogg]

Hi all, I need to get more involved in these kinda theads so I am suggesting a new topic. Setting up your HUDS. As a US player, I'm not playing on Merge where I see the same player a lot more often and have more stats on them then I ever did at FT. I had maybe 1 or 2 players on FT that I had >1k hands at FT over 200K+ hands. Now after 25K hands at Merge, I have probably 10-15 players that I have >1K hands history.

Here is my HUD.


Player name /Hands /BB /100
VPIP / PFR / Agg / 3bet% / fold to 3 bet
Steal% / Fold BB to steal / Flop C bet / Fold to flop C bet/ Turn C bet / Fold to turn C bet

What does everybody else like to include in theirs? I've thought about adding WTSD% and W$SD.

 

[Cafeman]

Name / Hands / bb/100
VPIP / PFR / AF / AFF / AFT / AFR
ATS / FBB / 3B / F3B
CB / FCB / TC / FTC / WTSD / W$SD

I'd also be interested to see other HUDs.

 

[billdogg]

Cafeman, care to share how much you use your WTSD and W$SD stats in your decisions, and how much they've helped?

 

[acky100]

Yeah ive never took them into consideration, but i might start looking at them on the pop up...

Why do you guys have bb/100 there, in my experience a lot of the time the fish are showing profit until inevitably they get stacked, and i have lots of decent regulars who are showing that theyre down over like 2k hands, whereas in reality theyre winning players over all, bb/100 takes ages before it could be meaningful and a lot of the time the fish are being crazy and half of them are getting lucky etc, i just click on the pop up and see if someones down a lot which just backs up that i already know theyre fish?

 

[orangepeeleo]

My Hud is
VPIP/PFR/AGG/HANDS
CBET/ATSTL/3B
FCBET/FSTL/F3B/LC (LC just added fwiw)

Im with acky on the usefulness of a bb/100 stat, you can see for yourselves in your own stats that bb/100 doesnt mean shit til thousands of hands down the line or w/e.

Also, why include the name of the player?? If you make sure your HUD is lined up properly (which im guessing it is) then a name field just takes up room