Tyler's Difficult Spot and Study Thread

[TylerN]

2nd hand, I don't like 3 betting. His fold to 3 bet is really low, so he's probably going to call, then you're in a big pot OOP with a speculative hand.

his ft3b may be on the lower side but his stl% is so wide that i think 3betting with a hand that flops well is fine. i am thinking about not polarizing my 3bet range so much at 4nl

 

[billdogg]

I would rather 3 bet with KJ or something to someone who steals a lot.

Still, bloating a pot OOP with a marginal hand sucks.

 

[TylerN]

if ft3b is like 50% or lower than yes i would 3bet KJ to merge my 3bet range since they call with worse. but because he is stling so wide and folding a decent amount of the time, 3betting air hands that have decent equity vs there calling range along with the fold equity we have is fine imo

 

[absoluthamm]

I would rather 3 bet with KJ or something to someone who steals a lot.

Still, bloating a pot OOP with a marginal hand sucks.

But it is necessary against someone who steals a lot.

 

[billdogg]

Not when they don't fold to 3 bets very much IMO. Wait for a better spot with a better hand.

 

[absoluthamm]

That could very easily be missing out on quite a bit of equity in the long run depending on how villain plays his hands out postflop. T9s in my opinion there is just as good as KJo. They are both marginal hands, and if you're playing against a calling station, then either one of them can be profitable postflop depending on what his postflop stats are. If he is folding to CB's 80+% of the time when a pot was raised preflop, then I am willing to go even more marginal, because I can easily take it away postflop. If he is calling down everything and/or repopping you postflop and it's hard to get an idea of what he has, then I will tighten that preflop 3B'ing range up.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

That could very easily be missing out on quite a bit of equity in the long run depending on how villain plays his hands out postflop. T9s in my opinion there is just as good as KJo. They are both marginal hands, and if you're playing against a calling station, then either one of them can be profitable postflop depending on what his postflop stats are. If he is folding to CB's 80+% of the time when a pot was raised preflop, then I am willing to go even more marginal, because I can easily take it away postflop. If he is calling down everything and/or repopping you postflop and it's hard to get an idea of what he has, then I will tighten that preflop 3B'ing range up.

KJo is much stronger than T9s against an opponent with a wide range.

If you hit a king or Jack you probably have the best hand and can value bet 2-3 streets.

If you hit a ten or 9 with T9s then you cant easily value bet it and expect to get called down with weaker tens or nines.

The whole "its suited" argument really dosent boad well at micros. The advantage of these hands is that you can barrel with equity. The problem is if your oponent dosent fold well then you are owning yourself by allowing him to call down with weak made hands whilst yo barrel draws.

So T9s is a good hand to 3bet against an opponent who folds a lot to 3bets, if called you figure you are behind but occasionally will hit a concealed monster.

KJo is a better hand to flat with when your opponents range is wide and he is either very aggro (will bluff cards that hit you) or very passive (will call down with weaker hands)

What you must take into account is that KJo is behind most peoples opening range (but not vastly so) so you need a postflop plan. You cant call folp bets to decide what to do on the turn or river, you need to know now what to do against this specific opponent.

This can be contrasted to a hand like KK or AA where cards strength is so much greater that calling or raising most flops is rarely a mistake and so you can get deeper into the hand before making big mistakes, and of course by then you have more information.

3betting KJo is never a mistake against someone who folds alot as its a bluff with blockers but calling and playing postflop is always much more profitable provided you can identify why and when its profitable to continue.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

if ft3b is like 50% or lower than yes i would 3bet KJ to merge my 3bet range since they call with worse. but because he is stling so wide and folding a decent amount of the time, 3betting air hands that have decent equity vs there calling range along with the fold equity we have is fine imo

Thats a really fancy way of saying you would bet KJ for value as he calls with worse.

Of course if you can 3bet KJo for vale you cant 3bet T9s as a bluff

 

[Stu_Ungar]

if ft3b is like 50% or lower than yes i would 3bet KJ to merge my 3bet range since they call with worse. but because he is stling so wide and folding a decent amount of the time, 3betting air hands that have decent equity vs there calling range along with the fold equity we have is fine imo

It isnt fine.

Reason #1 to bet = value (can you get called by worse than T9s) Answer no

Reason #2 to bet = bluff (will you get better hands to fold) Answer, not if he dosent fold much

T9s does not have decent equity against his calling range (you are behind)

You dont expect him to fold much so you shouldnt start adding in FE

You cant bluff this guy and you cant value bet this hand so FOLD or CALL

You can value bet KJo you can value bet AQ, you can value bet TT.

Once you identify that a player calls too much you cannot justify 3betting any hand that isnt ahead of his calling range not with 100bb stacks.

You dont have decent equity, you are behind. You cant factor in FE, you have already stated he dosent fold much. You could call and play a pot with a highte SPR in position, you could fold but raising here = spew

 

[TylerN]

thanks for the post Stu. really informative. but i may have been confusing in wat i was saying. when i would 3bet KJo for value i didnt imply i would 3bet T9s vs that player. that player that i described was f23b 50% and lower and not folding a lot postflop. the villain in the hand i posted had different stats

if someone is stling 43% and f23b 60% arent they folding enough to make 3betting air profitable?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Yes if the fold a lot to 3bets then you can 3bet them a lot although I would not 3bet complete air but rather weak speculative hands (which are nearly the same but may spike the occasional flop if they call)

Looking at those stats he is probably calling with most PP and most BW so cbettimg low boards and giving up might not be a good idea as he will probably peel with 2 overs.

I thought that you were 3betting the T9s against the same player. Its all about getting value. So postflop its unlikely you could 3bet a ten for value for more than 1 street so 3betting so long as he folds a lot is fine because if he folds a lot he would tend to have an opening range T9s did badly against.

 

[TylerN]

Merge - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (MP): $4.63
CO: $6.36
BTN: $3.82
SB: $12.85
BB: $4.00
UTG: $4.57

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has J:heart: Q:heart:

UTG calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.16, fold, BTN calls $0.16, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.54, 3 players) 9:club: 3:heart: J:diamond:
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.36, BTN calls $0.36, fold

Turn: ($1.26, 2 players) 2:club:
Hero bets $0.67, BTN calls $0.67

River: ($2.60, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero?

villain is 25/14. Fold to Flop Cbet: 61%. Fold to Turn Cbet: 13% (1/8)

 

[xdeucesx]

Merge - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (MP): $4.63
CO: $6.36
BTN: $3.82
SB: $12.85
BB: $4.00
UTG: $4.57

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has J♥ Q♥

UTG calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.16, fold, BTN calls $0.16, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.54, 3 players) 9♣ 3♥ J♦
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.36, BTN calls $0.36, fold

Turn: ($1.26, 2 players) 2♣
Hero bets $0.67, BTN calls $0.67

River: ($2.60, 2 players) 7♦
Hero?

villain is 25/14. Fold to Flop Cbet: 61%. Fold to Turn Cbet: 13% (1/8)

i feel like your valuetowning yourself, since villain only continues to call when he has a strong hand, never floating... what hands can you beat?

J10, 1010, 109, Q10

Bad spot, but I feel like your only getting called by better here

 

[TylerN]

how would u of played the hand?

fwiw I have a note saying called my co open with 78o but that's standard for 25/14 I guess

 

[WVHillbilly]

140th!

 

[TylerN]

finallyyyyyy

 

[billdogg]

That's a tough hand. Sucks to get called OOP. I think you played it fine by betting turn small to keep pot small, and not giving up control. I'd probably check and hope for a checkback from mpp. Call a normal sized bet.

 

[TylerN]

pots 2.60 villain has 2.63 left which is why my turn sizing was that. are u advocating c/c shove?

 

[billdogg]

Board: 9c 3h Jd
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.795% 45.26% 06.54% 23298 3366.00 { QhJh }
Hand 1: 48.205% 41.67% 06.54% 21450 3366.00 { JJ-99, AJs, KJs, QTs+, JTs, AJo, KJo, QTo+, JTo }

Given the stats, he seems pretty passive. I think he'd check back most of his range, or bet 1/2 - 3/4 pot of his made jacks. It'd be a tough call if he shoves though. He would either be turning some of his made hands into bluffs, or missed QT.

This is a tough spot, and I regularly valuetown myself into slightly bigger hands. TT as an overpair into JJ happens to me far too often.

 

[xdeucesx]

tyler I'm probably playing the same way as you, maybe checking turn to keep pot small, but just a bad spot to be in

 

[WVHillbilly]

If we check and he shoves we need to be good 33% of the time to call. Since he checks back most (all?) of the made hands we beat and there are basically no real missed draws other than QT (unlikely call preflop), I doubt we're good nearly that often if he shoves. I don't think stacks are deep enough to bet/fold, so I think I ch/c a smallish bet and fold to a big bet.

 

[TylerN]

If we check and he shoves we need to be good 33% of the time to call. Since he checks back most (all?) of the made hands we beat and there are basically no real missed draws other than QT (unlikely call preflop), I doubt we're good nearly that often if he shoves. I don't think stacks are deep enough to bet/fold, so I think I ch/c a smallish bet and fold to a big bet.

welcome to my thread

QT is def in his range i would imagine since previously he called my LP open with 78o from the BTN. still the only draw that didnt get there would be QT

can we put out a 40c blocker bet here?

 

[WVHillbilly]

What does he call the 40c bet with?

 

[TylerN]

Merge - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (MP): $4.63
CO: $6.36
BTN: $3.82
SB: $12.85
BB: $4.00
UTG: $4.57

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has J:heart: Q:heart:

UTG calls $0.04, Hero raises to $0.16, fold, BTN calls $0.16, fold, fold, UTG calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.54, 3 players) 9:club: 3:heart: J:diamond:
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.36, BTN calls $0.36, fold

Turn: ($1.26, 2 players) 2:club:
Hero bets $0.67, BTN calls $0.67

River: ($2.60, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero?

just bringing the hand to this page so dont have to look back

 

[TylerN]

What does he call the 40c bet with?

only JT i guess so nvm on that. c/f to large bet or c/c small bet is best option then thanks.


results

River: ($2.60, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.95, fold