Thoughts on the Straddle?

[sixpeppers]

In order for a straddle to be plus EV you have to be at a really good game with lots of limping bad postflop play and no other pros, and deepstacked. I have straddled on and off with varying success and can say that if you aren't comfortable with knowing when to straddle and when not to its probably best you never straddle. I often like to straddle the first few rounds I sit down at a table with new players just to act like I am a fish and not a pro, it can give a lasting impression and it can encourage other people to straddle.

 

[Deco]

I can safely say I've never straddled and don't plan to.
I've heard it can be +EV 3way on the button but meh be arsed.

 

[baudib1]

If you play in a game that offers Mississippi you MUST take it unless you hate money.

 

[baudib1]

In order for a straddle to be plus EV you have to be at a really good game with lots of limping bad postflop play and no other pros, and deepstacked.

This is like 99% of all live games under 5/10.

 

[sixpeppers]

This is like 99% of all live games under 5/10.

Except for the deepstack part. That is very important, you should be 200 bbs deep making it 100bbs after straddle, anything shorter and it's hard to exploit bad postflop play as much, cuz u generally just need strong hands.

 

[JOEBOB69]

If you play in a game that offers Mississippi you MUST take it unless you hate money.

This 100%

Except for the deepstack part. That is very important, you should be 200 bbs deep making it 100bbs after straddle, anything shorter and it's hard to exploit bad postflop play as much, cuz u generally just need strong hands.

1/2 players for example i has KQo i call 14xbb,flop J73 c/f
I mean i get the point but fish do not.

 

[rickroll]

In a vacuum the straddle is indeed -EV. However, it offers a lot of great things and should be incorporated into your game for the following reasons, which is primarily leveling via table image.

Putting money in utg blind is typically a horrible decision and majority of the time you are just throwing away 2 big blinds and won't even see a flop, many other times you're over playing marginal hands out of position that can lead to kicker issues, overplaying middle pair, etc. This is why straddling is -EV.

However, +EV and -EV can't be looked at in a vacuum. Frankly, if everyone played optimal poker then poker would be predictable, hand reading would be incredibly easy and this is why you need to mix things up and play dumb periodically, especially if you're playing a long session where people are going to get a feeling for what you do. The ABC nits do get paid off, the thing is though that they only get paid off over short sample sizes vs really really bad players who don't care or pick up on the fact that said player that hasn't seen a flop in 4 orbits in a row and is now suddenly opening up big and 4betting preflop.

Basically, if you were playing a single hand, zoom poker style or against very bad players then straddling would be a horrible idea. However, if you're going to sit down at a table with some competent players over several hours you should straddle a few times, even if you just plan on folding your 2 big blinds. The reason why is because people will correspondingly adjust their image of you.

If you straddle and there are no antes then the pot opens up at 250% greater in size (NL 1/2 = $3 opening pot vs $7 pot with straddle) and the money is committed by people that are out of position and blind. This correspondingly makes stealing very tempting as well as forcing everyone to expect the steal and expect any bets will need to be larger than normal. It's this anticipation that you are creating. It puts people off balance, they make leveling decisions rather than card decisions and you can get very good reads on people.

The straddle is never about that single hand, sure you may hit bingo and wake up with KK and someone with QJs 4bets you all in trying to level you, but more likely then not you are donating 2 big blinds into a pot to put everyone else in uncomfortable situations. You will give off a false table image while also gaining valuable information about your opponents.

 

[EXTREMUM]

Palm Beach Kennel Club - their base table is a 2/1/2 (not 1/2), with Mississippi Straddle. Which is basically a straddle at any table position. Don't like it.

 

[IronHaji1989]

Straddle - good

72 game - good

Check in the dark - good

 

[Aces2w1n]

whoever says doesnt change anything should be shot... it halves the effective stack sizes which changes how you llay your cards

 

[jelani]

i dont get it if the goal is to make money consisitent money why not just move up when you want to play for more money. rather than randomly increasing the size of the pot when you dont even know what your going to get. you might be able to steal a pot here and there because your better than your apponent but in the end you make money in poker from having the best hand and someone else paying it off. you cant bluff your way to riches

 

[Running Nose II]

Players who put up a live straddle are there simply to gamble. It is a bad bet that smart payers will not make

 

[Dorugremon]

If a lot of players are straddling, then it's OK to join in occasionally for public relations. If it's a conventional live straddle, then why do it? Being in the blinds is bad enough.

If it's a Mississippi straddle, and you can do it OTB, that's a different story.

 

[EXTREMUM]

i dont get it if the goal is to make money consisitent money why not just move up when you want to play for more money. rather than randomly increasing the size of the pot when you dont even know what your going to get. you might be able to steal a pot here and there because your better than your apponent but in the end you make money in poker from having the best hand and someone else paying it off. you cant bluff your way to riches

Simply because raising the stakes (to 1/3, 2/5+...) buyins run deeper than 250bb to no-max, which adds to greater pre-flop aggression, where 6x to 10x-plus raises are the norm. This isn't suitable for everyone's calling range and skill set.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I'm not much of a cash game player, but planning on playing more often in the near future and was wondering what are some pros of using the straddle? I mean, the straddle has never been my thing, personally, but what are some pros of using it? It seems like the only pro would be stealing last position pre-flop, although the straddle would still be out of position vs. most players post-flop. Possibly, it could frustrate the blinds a bit, but other than that, I just look at it like paying an unnecessary, larger blind.

What are some other pros to using it? I'm just curious, really. I may start using it if there's something there I don't see about it.

Thank in advance for replies.

If you like lighting money on fire, straddle UTG. It serves no purpose. Sometimes it could be argued it helps create action on nitty tables...

However, I will still wait for others to do it. It is a fools bet.

 

[Matthew tudberry]

Straddle is just an extra blind and should be treat as such. Simply to create or induce more action from those who like to gamble it up.

 

[milka1605]

Straddle can be different. When you have a big stack, you run into more often to increase the stack by stealing blinds. This can be done at any position. With a small stack you denouncing only in late position and you risk losing what you have left

 

[Joe]

I found reading everyone's opinions on this very interesting.

I've never straddled before and always thought that it was at best a foolish gambit and at worst just done to annoy or out of bravado..

However some points raised about acting last and increasing pre-flop action do seem to have some relevance in the right circumstances, as well as possibly putting people off their game. It's definitely slightly rattled me on occasion!

Also, I am new here so not yet up to speed on common terminology and abbreviations... Could someone tell me what +/- EV is? Is it economic value or something?

Cheers

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I found reading everyone's opinions on this very interesting.

I've never straddled before and always thought that it was at best a foolish gambit and at worst just done to annoy or out of bravado..

However some points raised about acting last and increasing pre-flop action do seem to have some relevance in the right circumstances, as well as possibly putting people off their game. It's definitely slightly rattled me on occasion!

Also, I am new here so not yet up to speed on common terminology and abbreviations... Could someone tell me what +/- EV is? Is it economic value or something?

Cheers

EV stands for expected value. It refers to whether your decisions to call, raise, fold, whatever, are profitable in the long term.

For example, if you have A-A, and you raise, and someone ships, when you call, you have an EV of roughly 80%, if heads up. So 80% of the time, we expect to win the pot. 20% we dont. This is just an estimate based on incomplete information.


Another spot would be if you have a flush draw on the flop. We would have roughly 36% +/- equity on the flop against any 1 pair hand, if we get it in and see turn and river. So we are roughly a 2:1 dog here, so our pot odds must be better than 2:1 to have +EV.

So example, we are out of position, we raise to $20 with A-2hh. 1 caller. Flop Kh-7h-10d. We bet $25 (pot is $40), we get raised all in. Villain has us covered. All we really have is the flush draw. We had $200 starting hand. Now we have $155 in front of us.

So villains bet is $180, there is $25 (our flop bet) plus $40 (pot from preflop). This equals a grand total of $245 dead money in pot. We have to call $155 to win $245. So we aren't even getting 2:1 pot odds. If we called here, this would be negative EV. This means if we ran this hand a million times, same scenario, we expect to lose more than we win.

Catching my drift?

 

[duggs]

EV stands for expected value. It refers to whether your decisions to call, raise, fold, whatever, are profitable in the long term.

For example, if you have A-A, and you raise, and someone ships, when you call, you have an EV of roughly 80%, if heads up. So 80% of the time, we expect to win the pot. 20% we dont. This is just an estimate based on incomplete information.


Another spot would be if you have a flush draw on the flop. We would have roughly 36% +/- equity on the flop against any 1 pair hand, if we get it in and see turn and river. So we are roughly a 2:1 dog here, so our pot odds must be better than 2:1 to have +EV.

So example, we are out of position, we raise to $20 with A-2hh. 1 caller. Flop Kh-7h-10d. We bet $25 (pot is $40), we get raised all in. Villain has us covered. All we really have is the flush draw. We had $200 starting hand. Now we have $155 in front of us.

So villains bet is $180, there is $25 (our flop bet) plus $40 (pot from preflop). This equals a grand total of $245 dead money in pot. We have to call $155 to win $245. So we aren't even getting 2:1 pot odds. If we called here, this would be negative EV. This means if we ran this hand a million times, same scenario, we expect to lose more than we win.

Catching my drift?

This all looks approximately correct, but ill just add a few things in

EV is almost always a monetary value, for example in a given game your EV of 3betting AA v an UTG open could amount to +$8. so everytime you 3bet AA v an UTG open you make $8 on average.

When we say +/- EV it is always relative to folding. so when someone says a +EV call it simply means we net more money by calling than folding in expectation

 

[subdylzep]

OK this is tricky, I asked this when i was playing for just the first couple years.
Basically it only becomes advantageous if you are an aggressive player, ie the point of a straddle is to bump it almost every time. This basically throws off nits and tight aggressive players like said earlier, It puts people in uncomfortable positions on how to actually adjust to the situation because they are expecting a big raise from the straddler. I have often limped a straddle expecting a raise and then the straddler checks, throwing me off completely to what i was planning on doing and throwing off my big pairs and how i wanted to play them. Its very confusing and hard to adjust to, but basically if you are going to play it you better know how the rest of the table is playing and how to adjust to them. And play it aggressively, raise about 8 out of 10 times with almost anything. Thats the entire point.
It can often help you w a hand you get UTG like JJ or 1010 which is hard to play UTG and now you get it on the BB esentially, but this is so rare that its not really the reason to play the straddle just an added bonus really.
In the case of a mississippi straddle (WHICH IS COMPLETE AND UTTER BS) you should ALWAYS DO IT... ALWAYS.. I think its probably the most unfair thing ever allowed in poker. I have never actually played a game with it allowed, but when i was explained it, I was like WTF why in the hell wouldn't i straddle on the button??? doesnt make any sense to me, its like hey you get a bonus w extra money and an extra option in the best position... obviously?? if you ever get a chance to play a game w a mississippi straddle.. always do it! Those are my thoughts on the straddle... gl in future events.

 

[ranma187]

A straddle cuts everyone's big blinds in half. It's not a proper play unless you are rolled for the higher stake.

 

[Sidetracked]

If I see someone straddle at an online 6 max cash game, I always think 'action loving, degen fish'. And it's usually true. But a good player could take that typical perception of a player who straddles and use it to his/her advantage, I suppose.

 

[Marginal]

It's really simple. If you are better than your opponents you should be getting more money in and playing more hands.

/thread