Short Stack Strategy in Micro stakes

[absoluthamm]

I'm agreeing with the last two all the way. If you can't beat the lower stakes, there is no way you're going to beat the higher stakes. Not to mention, 10NL players play the same way as 2NL and 5NL, so you think you're going to get something different, but you're not. Ask just about any of the qualified members here and they will tell you, and I am sure they have a lot more experience than you(or I for that matter). I constantly see players like you with that same mindset and a month or two down the road they are back down at the bottom limits because they didn't take the time to close their holes in their game before they made a premature jump up in stakes because of ego or whatever and it comes right back in their face.

If you're not winning at 2NL/5NL, then you will not win at 10NL/25NL/50NL/100NL/...

Don't take this as anyone calling you a bad player either, it's just that your game needs work if you are having problems at these low levels.

 

[shinedown.45]

Most short stackers/Hit and run players are merely gamblers who hope to get lucky because they lack the proper skills to become an efficient and profitable poker player IMO.
No offense kid but I think you need more work on your game if you have to resort to luck when playing poker.

On the same note, the reason you may not be achieving your goal while SSing could be the fact the a SSS strategy has one fatal flaw, It's limited card selection. IMO

 

[slycbnew]

There are specific strategies for shortstacking, and it's a bit more than waiting for top 5% hands. My understanding is that ss'ing is very difficult to execute profitably over the long run without relying on rakeback, as others have said above.

OP, we don't know what you're implementing strategically, so it's kinda hard to tell whether you're running cold or playing non-optimally relative to ss strategies, or running on average using a strategy that's generally not supposed to be hugely profitable.

 

[Pascal-lf]

I agree. But you have to give the guy some credit for trying this cuz on the 0.02 tables and the 0.05 ones it's not poker that's being played it's donkaluckaloo!

people never EVER get off their hand whatever the situation and when you have'em trapped, they catch whatever runner-runner suckeydonkey they need after their imbecile call cuz, let's face it, pocket aces aint gonna do shit against 8 players with rag hands...One of them idiots is gonna hit something!

that's why i stopped playing at those tables...waiting to deposit 200$ and play full stack on the 0.10 NL tables.

I've played 8k hands in the last two days at 0.02/0.05 and trust me, people do fold They also showdown with the craziest hands and give you lots of money. Nom nom.

What makes you think that moving from 0.02/0.05 to 0.05/0.1 is going to mean you get to play far better opponents? It'll be exactly the same, just with a few more half decent regs chucked in amongst the maniacs and fish

I've run into a few shortstackers at low stakes, but no good ones. They are too easy to outplay - they only ever play extremely tight and then try and ship it either pre or on any good flop, so if you have position on them with hands like suited connectors where you can outflop their high pocket pair or premium Ace by calling their raises they'll ship it into you anyway

 

[thepokerkid123]

I've run into a few shortstackers at low stakes, but no good ones. They are too easy to outplay - they only ever play extremely tight and then try and ship it either pre or on any good flop, so if you have position on them with hands like suited connectors where you can outflop their high pocket pair or premium Ace by calling their raises they'll ship it into you anyway

Random tip to help take money away from anyone playing a SS:
Don't play SCers against them (unless you're planning on bluff-shoving the flop), play high cards and stack your top pair weak kicker. Stacks are too short for implied odds stuff, just find a decent pair or some outs and shove.

 

[Pascal-lf]

I like that idea, good shout

At 5NL there are normally at least 3 people in a raised pot anyway so the implied odds come from their stacks.

 

[absoluthamm]

The majority of the time the short stackers also have no fold equity, so if you got in the hand with them to begin with with SC's and didn't hit, your bet is just going to get called.

 

[TSM12]

I have to say that I like to buy in short stacked to begin with. I use that to learn how the other player play. You find out who call all in with any pair and who is very conservative. If I loose it, then no big loss and then I buy in for a much larger amount. I usually get my buy in back pluss more.

 

[absoluthamm]

I have to say that I like to buy in short stacked to begin with. I use that to learn how the other player play. You find out who call all in with any pair and who is very conservative. If I loose it, then no big loss and then I buy in for a much larger amount. I usually get my buy in back pluss more.

You could also sit and observe at a table to find that information out, which is might be more beneficial to you if you are concerned that you won't find that information out by just playing your normal game...

 

[Elie_Yammine]

hmm...I have to say this.(sorry OP, I'm off topic)
You may be right but I'm still going to deposit at least 100$ or 200$ next month and try and beat the 0.05 0.10 NL tables a bit for the same reason presented above, and because I've been studying a lot more poker lately (playing online, live, reading books, watching vids, posting, etc...) and I believe that you can only get smarter by playing a smarter opponent. You may argue that they're not much better than the 0.05 ones but I'll have a clearer mindset because of my prejudice, and if I do lose, I'd learn the lesson you're trying to teach me first-hand .
But really, thanks anyway guys!and plz, wish me success rather than you being right .

 

[joe steady]

surprised WVHillbilly hasn't been here yet.

Anyway, to answer the original question, I don't think shortstacking can work at micro's, as your dwindling bankroll is no doubt proving to you. Here's why:
-SS is dependent upon you being able to put your opponents on a range of hands. Good luck with that at .01/.02nl.
-SS is dependent upon your opponents having a good understanding of pot odds. Again, not happening so much at the lower levels.
-You must have the smallest stack relative to everyone else at the table. Again, pretty rare. Lots of people buy in for under the full amount, either because they don't have a big enough roll or are scared or lost half their stack calling down with top pair on a 3 flush board or whatever.
I think the biggest reason, however, is that there just isn't that much money on the table for people to worry about. I know that most of us look at in terms of BB's, but there's a lot of people that don't see it that way. They're really not thinking much beyond what 2 cards they have - "One of my cards is an ACE, so I'm going to RAISE. You're going to make it another twenty cents? That's O.K., I have an ACE! CALL!"
Someone gave me some good advice, and I'm going to pass it along here - adjust your play to beat the level you're at. Don't get fancy against players who don't understand, play good basic poker and you'll beat them. Once you move up, then you can try shorstacking, but be well rolled - it's an extremely high variance style of play. Good luck!
*note - I'm not a SSer, just figured I should understand it if I wanted to beat it

 

[S93]

How is this thread 2 pages when this is all u need to answer the question?
Oh yeah maybe throw in a bit about geting raped by micro stakes rake.

+1. In 2+2 style:

Best strategy for short stackers is probably self mutilation ... Saves there soul.

 

[Kidsoldja]

Most short stackers/Hit and run players are merely gamblers who hope to get lucky because they lack the proper skills to become an efficient and profitable poker player IMO.
No offense kid but I think you need more work on your game if you have to resort to luck when playing poker.

On the same note, the reason you may not be achieving your goal while SSing could be the fact the a SSS strategy has one fatal flaw, It's limited card selection. IMO

None taken...thats why i started this thread bro, to get your insights on the topic. i take constructive criticism very well dont worry. its how you get better.

 

[thepokerkid123]

I had a quick look and couldn't see anywhere that anyone actually explained it to you, but asking about short stacking is about the only topic you'll get told to self mutilate instead of getting actual advice.

People hate short stackers because if they're using a winning strategy they are accurately speaking, parasites on the other winning players. Sites like fulltilt changed to a 40bb min buy in because SSers pissed off the regs for a long time.

Don't do it, it's dumb, you're not doing yourself any favours (playing a full stack is more profitable) and you're crippling the winrates of the other regs you play against.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I had a quick look and couldn't see anywhere that anyone actually explained it to you

Really?

SS strategy revolves around shoving preflop to exploit fold equity against a standard deep stack opening range. It dosent revolve around seeing cheap flops and shoving when you hit.

It works because you consider both the fold equity against the range and the Showdown equity the hand has against the players calling range with a guaranteed showdown. Its rare to get many hands in against a reasonably tight preflop fange with less than 25% equity... you really have to be shoving trash against a nit to get less sd equity than that.

 

[thepokerkid123]

I meant, I couldn't see where anyone explained why he's gotten a hostile reaction.

 

[Poker Orifice]

You are severely cutting the profits that could be made by shortstacking. Playing with a big stack guarantees that if you get into a situation that you get your whole stack in, you are going to profit more from it(because you should only be getting your stack in with the best hand, right???). Also it gives you ammo, a player with a short stack has no way of getting rid of another player in the pot if by the turn they only have 2BB's left after any raising preflop and then the flop, whereas if you have a big stack, you can scare someone out of drawing to a hand...

You're cutting profits 'IF' you know how to play deepstacked poker 'profitably'.
SSS if done well can be profitable. Sure there's alot of bad SS'rs but in the past I've seen many in the microstakes who were profitable using it.

I think you're missing the key reason why they use SSS.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I meant, I couldn't see where anyone explained why he's gotten a hostile reaction.

Just because SSS is plain annoying!

1.) its pretty easy, you could make a couple of hand charts and just follow them. It dosent involve much thought, its all about shoving preflop.

2.) its not that exciting, the guy doing it isnt "playing poker" he is litereally following a mechanical hand chart.

3.) its not all that profitable. Even when its done right at high enough stakes to beat the rake, its only barely profitable. It isnt all that great of a money spinner.

4.) its mathmatically in-exploitable. that just means that there is no way a deepstack can adjust to it without reducing his own winrate. He either opens tighter which reduces the playable hands he has or gets it in lighter which leaves him vulnerable to other deepstacks.. not the SS the SS probably has a hand he would happily flip with.. but the presence of other deep stacks left to act mean he has to fold often.

5.) its purely an online phenomenon. You cant buy in short and then leave the table every time you double up live. Often you cant buy in as short as SS requires and they wont let you keep hoping from table to table every 10 mins!

6.) so really as SSS does is allow a bunch of unskilled players to ruin a game; they dont actually make all that much in in terms of bb/100 doing this.

7.) DS like playing other DS.. SS actually hate playing other SS because if everyone buys in short much of their fold equity disappears. Its like saying, "I have a hand you may beat or at worst you are flipping with, but you cant call me because there is someone else left to act and if he dosent fold then we are both probably going to lose.. but you lose 100bb whilst I only lose 15bb.. so you have to fold".

8.) SSS is basically a quirk of the online game that is only really used by people who cant play poker so they can sit in on games where they dont really belong and just ruin them.

9.) there really isnt anything good to say about people who do this... what can we say?

-WOW you are really skillfull? - no there is little skill involved.
-Well you must be making lots of money? - no its little more than break-even when done correctly.
-Did you know that you really annoy people because you ruin the game they are trying to play? - yes they are fully aware of this and choose to do it anyway.

10.) the only reason anyone becomes interested in SSS, it crosses everyone's mind at some point and obviously has crossed the OP's mind its that they are looking for a "quick fix" an easy way to turn a losing player into a non-losing player. No one who is beating the game for a reasonable winrate ever switches to SSS, why would you its less profitable than any decent DS strategy.



Does everyone get the jist?

 

[Poker Orifice]

Very well put S.U. (might be of help to a newer SS'r, hee hee hee). No in all seriousness, a very well-written response for OP.

 

[Marginal]

Just a few words to say about the social implications of being a short stack. If you do go ahead and short stack, be prepared to have literally, no friends/ support in the poker community.

 

[Elie_Yammine]

Just a few words to say about the social implications of being a short stack. If you do go ahead and short stack, be prepared to have literally, no friends/ support in the poker community.

LOL!+1!