Representing the flop.

Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

Rock Star
A common situation on texas hold´em is that you don´t know where you´re at in hand, specially after the flop. That happens too often when you hold middle pair or something like that. Now, what should you do when you´re on a situation like this? The answer is quite simple: bet. If you just keep checking and calling, then you will be dominated by the other players and you will never become a goo player. So by betting, you´re creating an image of what´s going on. Generally, if you bet there the players who hold weak hands will fold, also the player who hold medium hand will fold, because you´re representing that the flop helped you. And in the last case, the players who hold strong hand will either call or raise. So in that way, you can either steal a pot or make an easy fold, preventing traps.
This strategie makes you a more aggressive player, and it has its benefits, because if you start representing too much flops, then the players will start calling you knowing that you don´t have the best hand every time, so when you hit the monster, you´re probably gonna get called.
It sounds like i´m telling a perfect strategie, but you can say: "If you bet and get raised then you will fold, so if you keep doing this and too often you get raised, you´re gonna lose a lot of money". The answer is this: the key on this bet is to bet an amount of money that is not so low to be call by low pot odds, but not so high that if you get raised you feel that you´re pot committed and lose more money. It´s a medium bet. And obviously you don´t have to use this strategie on every single flop you play (but it´s highly recommended to represent the flop every time you raised preflop, because if you don´t do it, you are telling to the other players that you didn´t hit anything). Another profit of this strategie is that, for example, if you bet an X amount of money to represent the flop and you get caught by a player that raises you, then you will fold. If you keep doing this more times and the same thing happens, it´s good for you, because then when you hit the nuts the only thing you have to do is to bet that X amount, so the other players will say: "he´s trying to buy the pot again" and they will raise you. There you can either raise or call, hoping the player will try to buy the pot on the turn.
Betting the same amount is a part of representig the flop, but also you can take this in your advantage changing your betting patterns to steal more pots and become more unpredictable. With the same example as before, where you bet X to represent the flop and all players know that, now here is another situation: if you have a low pocket pair, the flop comes all overcards and your opponent has medium pair and checks, you have now to bet 3X, because if you bet X your opponent will call you even with medium pair, but if you bet 3X your opponent will asume that you really have to top pair or better.
Well, that´s all. If you wanna be more aggressive, at least try to incorpore this to your game and please tell me if it worked for you.
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

A Member
Love the work put into this, but it assumes that players will generally follow pot and draw odds. While this may happen on large limit tables, you can forget it with low stakes. I do this myself when I know the table is playing "by the rules"; however, there are a LOT of players that will call anything with nothing...
 
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Poker Player 100

Rock Star
But are u sure youre not copy and pasting this shit

does this apply for No Limit????
 
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Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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This isn't a cut and paste. Too many gramatical errors. Nope, this cat knows his shit. Keep it up Jesus.
 
Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

Rock Star
Four Dogs said:
This isn't a cut and paste. Too many gramatical errors. Nope, this cat knows his shit. Keep it up Jesus.
lol, you´re right (i like your quote "this cat knows his shit"). On my first thread: "Even Jesus goes on tilt" i said that you have to excuse me for my english. I´m chilean and i understand almost all english, but when i write i committe a lot of mistakes. I hope you understand my ideas even with those gramatical errors.
Poker Player 100 said:
But are u sure youre not copy and pasting this shit

does this apply for No Limit????
As you can see i didn´t copy paste my thread. I just try to collect some things from books and my own experiences (remember: there is no substitute to experience. Practice and you will learn), and then i try to organize all the information i can into a logical idea. Then i can share those ideas with you.

I play NLHE the most, so yes, you can apply this strategie on NLHE, actually, the best game to apply this strategie is NLHE, because in this LHE the game loosen up a lot, and it´s hardly to bluff. In LHE you will generally get called with less odds than NLHE.
 
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MicheleW

MicheleW

Rock Star
I agree, this will work with people who play like you. With the wide range of crazy to timid players out there - it won't work all the time. They'll call you to the river and hit their card and suck you out so fast. What Jesus says is really logic if you think about it - but many players online are certainly not logical. LOL
 
Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

Rock Star
MicheleW said:
I agree, this will work with people who play like you. With the wide range of crazy to timid players out there - it won't work all the time. They'll call you to the river and hit their card and suck you out so fast. What Jesus says is really logic if you think about it - but many players online are certainly not logical. LOL
IrishDave said:
Love the work put into this, but it assumes that players will generally follow pot and draw odds. While this may happen on large limit tables, you can forget it with low stakes. I do this myself when I know the table is playing "by the rules"; however, there are a LOT of players that will call anything with nothing...
I agree with both of you. But remember that every decision, every play, every strategie you use in the game, it must be according to the situation. A general rule is not to bluff against a maniac player, because it´s imposible. They are gonna call you on every bet you make, so against them you can wait for a monster hand and get a lot of money. Representing the flop is more useful when the table image is kind of tight (situation that obviously you cannot find at the beggining of a freeroll for example. If you represent the flop there, probably you will get called or even raised all in with rags). A very particular example to find a tight table is when you´re in a tourney and the payouts are to come. If there are 160 players left and the payouts starts from 150, then it´s pretty sure that the table is gonna turn tight. Representing the flop it also works with loose or aggressive players, because even if they enter in a lot of hands, maybe after the flop they are more passive or they wouldn´t know how to play there. But as i said before, it doesn´t works against maniacs.
 
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colin_147

Guest
I use this strategy a lot. If I am holding nothing and flop come 2 4 7, I always make a fair bit just atfer the flop. It often weeds out all those not holding or chasing. If you get raised, fold 'em. Only a top pair calls or raises this.

Nice advice though, Lederer
 
tenbob

tenbob

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I like to bet at a non-descript pot ususally with middle or bottom pair and an overcard, it gives you lots of outs if you are called, and if u hit your overcard or top 2 pair you can really cream it otherwise its an easy fold !!
 
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Dgnr8Gambler

Guest
Good post, but I disagree with one statement. You said you should always represent the flop when you raised pre-flop, and I couldn't disagree more. I understand where you're coming from, and it IS a good idea to represent the flop a majority of the time - but I wouldn't do ANYTHING EVERY time. First you've got to take into consideration how many people called you, and what position they are in. You've got to start putting people on hands. I'm about to start a thread on this and I will discuss it more intensely.
 
K

KK_Cowboy

Guest
Well Jesus

There is a lot of good points in what you said. However there is one thing that I feel you have overlooked here which can and has also been a very useful tool for me. You said that if you bet before the flop, you should represent after the flop. While yes this is a good idea and something people should try and work into their game, raising before the flop and then checking after the flop can have it's advantages as well, in certain situations. I personally would say a person should represent more than check after a raise preflop. But I can use 2 examples from a tournament I recently played in (where I finished 2nd) to prove my point.

I had a very healthy stack of chips during both of these occasions (250k-350k).
On two hands I raised preflop with hands that are worthy of a raise. What they were, well I will keep that a secret ;). Anyway in both instances, I hit my "key" card and knew I had the better hand. I was first to act both times and checked both times to make myself look like I missed. I was raised at both times and then I re-raised my opponents back forcing them all in. They thought that I had missed my hands in both occasions when really they were heavily dominated.

While representing is usually the better play, there are times in poker when a raise pre-flop and a check after the flop isn't always a bad idea.
 
Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

Rock Star
Dgnr8Gambler said:
Good post, but I disagree with one statement. You said you should always represent the flop when you raised pre-flop, and I couldn't disagree more. I understand where you're coming from, and it IS a good idea to represent the flop a majority of the time - but I wouldn't do ANYTHING EVERY time. First you've got to take into consideration how many people called you, and what position they are in. You've got to start putting people on hands. I'm about to start a thread on this and I will discuss it more intensely.
You totally disagree with me, i totally agree with you. Maybe i exaggerated saying "every time", but that´s because i wanted to emphasize that majority of the time you should do it. As i said before, if you don´t do it, you´re telling your opponent that you didn´t hit anything and you become vulnerable, but of course you have to analyze the situation. Every strategie depends on the situation: position, opponent´s style, stack size, etc.
As i said before, i generalized saying "every time" to emphasize that majority of the time you should do it. It´s like when you read a starting hands´s chart: You know that you should follow it almost all the time, they show you the basics of the game, but you can (and must) play another hands that aren´t in the chart depending on the situation.

KK_Cowboy said:
There is a lot of good points in what you said. However there is one thing that I feel you have overlooked here which can and has also been a very useful tool for me. You said that if you bet before the flop, you should represent after the flop. While yes this is a good idea and something people should try and work into their game, raising before the flop and then checking after the flop can have it's advantages as well, in certain situations. I personally would say a person should represent more than check after a raise preflop. But I can use 2 examples from a tournament I recently played in (where I finished 2nd) to prove my point.

I had a very healthy stack of chips during both of these occasions (250k-350k).
On two hands I raised preflop with hands that are worthy of a raise. What they were, well I will keep that a secret
wink.gif
. Anyway in both instances, I hit my "key" card and knew I had the better hand. I was first to act both times and checked both times to make myself look like I missed. I was raised at both times and then I re-raised my opponents back forcing them all in. They thought that I had missed my hands in both occasions when really they were heavily dominated.

While representing is usually the better play, there are times in poker when a raise pre-flop and a check after the flop isn't always a bad idea.
In the example you mentioned you said that you hit the "key" card and you knew you had the better hand. In that case, if you bet you´re not representing the flop, because actually you have the best hand. Representing the flop is betting with a medium hand "representing" that you have a good one.
What you´re talking about is slowplaying, and to slowplay you have to have a good hand.
I think you had a confusion with the term "represent the flop".

ps: I wrote this thread 2 months ago and now i can say that this strategie it has been one of the most useful in my game. I simply love it.
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
He didn't say he was representing the flop when he hit his key card. He was pointing out that he raised pre-flop with decent hole cards then check-raised the flop, he didn't slow play the hand at all. He check-raised. Slow playing is basically giving your opponent another street for free or cold calling his raise when you hold a big hand. Maybe a check-raise can be considered a type of slow play, but he re-raised his opponent all-in after he checked and before the turn. Not to slow if you ask me.

In other news, this thread is old as Moses. What the hell is it doing alive?

He didn't say he was representing the flop when he hit his key card. He was pointing out that he raised pre-flop with decent hole cards then check-raised the flop, he didn't slow play the hand at all. He check-raised. Slow playing is basically giving your opponent another street for free or cold calling his raise when you hold a big hand. Maybe a check-raise can be considered a type of slow play, but he re-raised his opponent all-in after he checked and before the turn. Not to slow if you ask me.

In other news, this thread is old as Moses. What the hell is it doing alive?
 
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Bill_Hollorian

Bill_Hollorian

Rock Star
Some describe this as continuation betting. Take it one step further. 1 out the 5 times you are representing the flop...Don't even look at the flop. You have been the preflop aggressor, eveyone perceives that they are drawing to you, so you are betting or raising regardless of the flop. So dont even LOOK at it. watch your opponents 1 by 1 "check to the raiser". Then pull the trigger!
* Obviously dont do this alot, just very rarely when you know you are betting the flop no matter what comes up. but try it once in a while. It will open doors to the raw aggression that is required in the game. They can't "read" you, because you dont even know what you have. You simply know that they don't have, and are betting they don't!
Make Stu Ungar proud, who by the way did this often.

Bill
ps Stuey and God are playing heads up right now...The last I heard God was on tilt and asking for a new set up. Stuey is up and now owns approximatley 30% of heaven.
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
In related news Stu just donked his 30% stake in heaven off last night in a boat race with Noah.:)
 
W

WraithPoker

Guest
PATIENCE PATIENCE PATIENCE....dont have it you will lost a bundle (I remember 2002). Start by playing Limit Hold'em...I perfer 1/2 over .5/1 tables. YOu must learn the math.

Brad play these hands ONLY (since you are new) AA KK QQ JJ 1010 99 88 AK AQ and Asuited (not raised) for 5000 hands. Then add KQ QJ AJ (suited or not). You should never 'cold call' without at least AK or big pair 1010 +. Then re-raise it.

This should put you at 12-15% vip 'voluntary in pot' and generally you will see 20% of the total flopps...playing 20 of 100 hands. I have found that in general you should statistically win 10% of the pots in a full table ring game 10 players. So if you enter 20 hands of 100 you will win 50% of them. (not everytime) but average.

Oh yeah raise with AA KK QQ AK AQ re raise a raise with AA KK QQ AK (jacks are different to me as there are 3 ways to play them and all are wrong)

I was a newbie once....If I had taken this list and advise 2002 would have been a profit year.

Do not chat ingame...EVER..EVER...EVER...take a bad beat or feel tilty...sit out and do something else for awhile...I see lots of players (good ones) whe sit out 10 hands after taking a bad beat.
 
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