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Aldito
Legend
Silver Level
Because you said a blind is a blind no matter what the stakes.
Not true. As WV said, calling for 3bb here is completely different than calling it at higher stakes.
OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
right, let me explain.
people's ranges in LP are WIDE, that means that a lot of their hands are weak.
so even if we hit our set, chances are either our opponent bricked or has like a 2nd pair hand or TPNK.. something most regs won't stack off with, even at the micros.
3bb out of a 100bb stack with no implied odds is the same whatever the stake regardless, I don't see why this is an argument.
its not completely different, its the same amount just at higher stakes the BTN's range will be even wider than in the HH provided which makes set mining even less profitable.
so to clarify, set mining against a wide range is not profitable.
and 5x AA UTG at 2nl and 200nl is clearly different, but has nothing to do with the above point.
why am I even having this argument?
people's ranges in LP are WIDE, that means that a lot of their hands are weak.
so even if we hit our set, chances are either our opponent bricked or has like a 2nd pair hand or TPNK.. something most regs won't stack off with, even at the micros.
3bb out of a 100bb stack with no implied odds is the same whatever the stake regardless, I don't see why this is an argument.
its not completely different, its the same amount just at higher stakes the BTN's range will be even wider than in the HH provided which makes set mining even less profitable.
so to clarify, set mining against a wide range is not profitable.
and 5x AA UTG at 2nl and 200nl is clearly different, but has nothing to do with the above point.
why am I even having this argument?
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Aldito
Legend
Silver Level
But at 10nl they are still more likely to stack lighter AND their range is LESS likely to be wider due to less positional awareness.
Obviously the immediate odds are the same at any stake but the implied odds do vary between micro and higher stakes...
Obviously the immediate odds are the same at any stake but the implied odds do vary between micro and higher stakes...
JamesDaBear
Visionary
Silver Level
Considering he was asking about a .05-.10 game, what someone can do profitably in "higher stakes" isn't relevant to what OP was asking; certainly had nothing to with any comment I made. Since you're here though, I'd appreciate you pointing me to other sources that corroborate folding pocket pairs from the big blind while 100+ bb deep and closing the action... at any stake level.
This is the advice I'm used to:
Adam Schoenfeld: "Pairs are great in No-limit, cause pairs make sets and sets break people."
For .20c... for quite a lot more than that... I'm in for breaking people.
OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
why are standard folds not standard, look in your db.. I'm sure set mining OOP against LP ranges is losing you money.
and granted people are learning (+me) but advocating calls in this spot is bad, against a UTG range it can make some sense, multiway it would make sense, but against a CO raise in a 6 max game..
come on.
you know its a fold, you know its losing you money.. the difference in stakes has nothing to do with it really, fact is 100bb deep flatting OOP just to set mine is a losing play.
and that quote's been badly misinterpreted imo, pairs break people in the right spot.. its not as simple as call every raise with every pair in every situation because sometimes you'll make a set.
its pretty disheartening that I have to debate this.
edit: Baudib I can see you lurking, explain this to them please..
and granted people are learning (+me) but advocating calls in this spot is bad, against a UTG range it can make some sense, multiway it would make sense, but against a CO raise in a 6 max game..
come on.
you know its a fold, you know its losing you money.. the difference in stakes has nothing to do with it really, fact is 100bb deep flatting OOP just to set mine is a losing play.
and that quote's been badly misinterpreted imo, pairs break people in the right spot.. its not as simple as call every raise with every pair in every situation because sometimes you'll make a set.
its pretty disheartening that I have to debate this.
edit: Baudib I can see you lurking, explain this to them please..
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baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
No one is against breaking people. Anyone who's ever played 2-card poker likes to play pocket pairs and make sets. The problem is 99.9% of people haven't worked out the math of it. With another player in the pot or solid reads and/or meta considerations, it's a pretty standard call. Without those it's not.
Small pairs in BB vs. BTN is a pretty standard fold (or 3-bet).
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
I would actually hate 3betting small pairs at these stakes. Your just going to get called way too often (preflop and postflop assuming you cbet good flops for your range) for it to be very profitable (exactly the reason why I think you can flat at these stakes and show a slight profit).
For the record I wouldn't fault anyone for folding preflop.
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billatx
Rock Star
Silver Level
Is opening with small pairs bad too?
how about calling from button?Would it be better to 3 bet there?
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GWU73
Visionary
Silver Level
I may have been unclear. Here is my understanding of the required implied odds to make small pocket pairs profitable. 12x your required call or more should be +ev. ( 8:1 hit a set, and 4 additional to cover the times you lose with a set or get no action) Therefore you do not need to get an entire stack to make money calling. In the bb, facing a 2bb call, you should need to have implied odds of winning a total of 24 bb: bb 1 + sb .5 + raise 3 =4.5 So we only need to win 20 more big blinds to make money, substantially less than an entire stack. If we are not in the bb or if the raise is larger, we would need to be able to win more. Getting the whole stack is nice, but as stacks get deeper, it becomes less likely that we can get a whole stack. Additionally, there are other (less common) ways to win a nice pot without hitting a set on the flop. Depending on villians you may get to the turn for free and be ably to bluff oop, flop in the middle of a straight draw, or face a nit who will fold to a check raise on a dry board.
As for needing to raise or get overbets early; it is a function of stack sizes. If you bet pot on the flop, turn and river after a pre flop pot of 6.5 big blinds you are only getting ~175 total BB into tho pot; half of which are yours. The raise or overbets are required to get the other 23 or so from your opponents stack. He may call the river for around 1.5 pot, but it is easier to get "some" of their money.
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baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
No. You need a lot more than 12-1. If it were only 12-1 then you could easily set mine in 3-bet pots, which I assure you is mostly not going to end well.
If villain's range here was only AA then you could probably call with 8-1 straight odds. Of course his range is wider than that though. If his range is JJ+/AQ+ then he's going to miss the flop or face overcards most of the time and even when he continues he will face an overcard with JJ-KK by the river a huge percentage of the time, or, run into a scary card that makes him fold or just fold to a flop raise. Not to mention the fact that when you flop a set you will generally end up losing 15% of the time when stacks get in.
If you are up against AQ/AK you will flop a set when they have TPTK only about 24% of the time.
Depending on villians you may get to the turn for free and be ably to bluff oop, flop in the middle of a straight draw, or face a nit who will fold to a check raise on a dry board.
No, it doesn't work like that. You can't just say you are calling for implied odds and then start burning money by continuing past the flop without a set.
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billatx
Rock Star
Silver Level
When is opening with 66- getting bad?Is it only good when you open then from button and cutoff?
How about calling with 66-from button?Is it bad?Would it be better to fold or 3 bet light there rather than set mine?
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baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
I would open 66- from all positions at 6-max, at most tables anyway. Calling 66 vs. EP openers or in multiway pots or when it is EXTREMELY likely to end up multiway, i.e. loose-passives in the blinds. If an aggro player opens from CO, flatting isn't going to be great.
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billatx
Rock Star
Silver Level
So,basically you open from everywhere,but don't call unless multiway or deepstack (> 150 BBs) effective stacks.
G
GWU73
Visionary
Silver Level
Ok, I did not just make up the 12x guideline, it is from Small Stakes No Limit Holdem Volume 1, page 143; in the guidelines versus steal raises section. We will have to agree to disagree on its merits. It has worked well for me.
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Demonomania
Rock Star
Silver Level
+1
I'm guilty of flatting but completely agree it's not profitable long term. Rarely we hit our set and often fold to LP cbet. Either fold pre or raise against CO/BNT.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
At the time that book was written it was probably correct since there were more bad players around who would easily call off 100bb with TP. Conventional wisdom these days is AT LEAST 15x but 20x is the real magic number.
T
TheBowlBoy
Rock Star
Silver Level
Interesting discussion.
Some truth here to both sides.
If you are going to call pre and purely setmine then any decent TAG/LAG is going to rape you a few bb at a time from making these calls pre.
That doesn't mean you should fold.
I play a lot of HU micros from starting tables and I'm not folding small pp's to a 3x raise in the bb. There often isn't that much difference playing HU from the BB and playing against a BTN opener at 6max or fullring if they have wide steal ranges.
In order for the preflop call to be profitable we need to average around 24bb profits per hand right? Lets assume that if we purely setmine then we are getting around 20bb in profits. If you aren't a complete nit in the blinds then any competent player should be barreling into you a decent amount which makes this easy when you do hit a set. So we just need to figure out how to make up the difference in 4bb. We just check raise a flop here, or with reads call the flop and cr the turn once in awhile. There is no recipe for what to do when, but if you can hand read reasonably well you can spot good spots where people are barreling with too wide of a range or they give off bet sizing tells on the turn.
If you can't reliably get paid off on your sets then you most definitely have a good opportunity to mix more bluffs into your range postflop.
If villain has a good skill edge on you then folding can be best too.
Edit: I just checked my db for the last 200k hands or so and I'm winning with 22-66 from the BB facing a steal. Only at a rate of 1.5bb per hand mind you, but thats a big difference than the -1bb/hand you get from folding. It is also important to note that as long as your losses in this spot are better than -1bb/hand then calling is better than folding.
Some truth here to both sides.
If you are going to call pre and purely setmine then any decent TAG/LAG is going to rape you a few bb at a time from making these calls pre.
That doesn't mean you should fold.
I play a lot of HU micros from starting tables and I'm not folding small pp's to a 3x raise in the bb. There often isn't that much difference playing HU from the BB and playing against a BTN opener at 6max or fullring if they have wide steal ranges.
In order for the preflop call to be profitable we need to average around 24bb profits per hand right? Lets assume that if we purely setmine then we are getting around 20bb in profits. If you aren't a complete nit in the blinds then any competent player should be barreling into you a decent amount which makes this easy when you do hit a set. So we just need to figure out how to make up the difference in 4bb. We just check raise a flop here, or with reads call the flop and cr the turn once in awhile. There is no recipe for what to do when, but if you can hand read reasonably well you can spot good spots where people are barreling with too wide of a range or they give off bet sizing tells on the turn.
If you can't reliably get paid off on your sets then you most definitely have a good opportunity to mix more bluffs into your range postflop.
If villain has a good skill edge on you then folding can be best too.
Edit: I just checked my db for the last 200k hands or so and I'm winning with 22-66 from the BB facing a steal. Only at a rate of 1.5bb per hand mind you, but thats a big difference than the -1bb/hand you get from folding. It is also important to note that as long as your losses in this spot are better than -1bb/hand then calling is better than folding.
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LuckTwist
Rising Star
Bronze Level
From a lot of database research. Calling the small pocket pairs in the BB is going to be OK I'm folding in the SB vs most steals though. If you look in your databases most people will show a loss in the BB but you need to take into account the blig blind already invested. You could say the same for the small blind but that half a big blind just doesnt make up for it. Rememer when you do call, just setmine. dont get calling bets.
I'm happy to 3 bet a lot of my small pairs against people who are arnt going to call often. they are also super easy to play postflop. Id much rather call with suited connectors and flop some sort of equity i can be aggressive with
I'm happy to 3 bet a lot of my small pairs against people who are arnt going to call often. they are also super easy to play postflop. Id much rather call with suited connectors and flop some sort of equity i can be aggressive with