Out of Position Continuation Betting - 25Max

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bw07507

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My question for you guys is this. In a small stakes cash game, I play 25max NL, say you raise preflop with AKs, BB calls, no reads on the player. Flop is junk cards and you are first to act. Do you throw a C-bet out here or check it? I will usually C-bet if I am in position and it checks to me when I am the preflop raiser and I dont hit the flop, but I always have trouble deciding whether or not to toss one out when Im first to act. I usually don't at this low of stakes thinking I will probably get called down with anything. I know Ive heard before some people dont ever C-bet if they miss the flop in low stakes, Im curious on everyones thoughts about this.
 
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dj11

dj11

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First to act post flop always has an advantage UNLESS someone hit the flop big. Think of it as a probing bet, but make it big enough that tthe table will think your playing BIG pair or better.
 
Beavis68

Beavis68

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this is called the "right of first bluff" acting first is not always a disadvantage heads up.

As long as you have one opponent, yes I fire here basically every time.
 
J

joeeagles

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I agree with Beavis, you should c-bet here. Consider that when junk cards flop your opponent is likely to have also missed. Sure, he could have a small PP and you could be behind, but most times with AK you're ahead and heads up you should lead out. You are bound to take down many pots this way.
 
Beavis68

Beavis68

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WHAT? Where did you ever get this idea??

because most flops will miss your opponent. First one to bet will pick up the pot most of the time in heads up situations unless your opponent is uber tight.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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I understand, that in some situations, acting out first to a missed flopped is advantageous. However, it isn't most of the time. Position is a lot more important, more so than being the first to act to a missed flopped, more times than not.

Also, if you look at the post I responded to, the poster said that acting first, or out of position, was an advantage over being in position. This isn't true. Yes, certain times making a play will get you a small pot, however, in the long run making plays like these out of position and missing the flop will hurt you and your overall BR drastically. This isn't a smart play to make routinely. Yes, during some situations it is a good play, when you have reads or you know the person is tight, or near the bubble, ect, but most of the time it is not advantageous to act first out of position to a flop that you missed completely just so you can win a small pot.
 
Beavis68

Beavis68

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we were talking about a heads up spot. Acting first forces your opponent to react to you, that is usually a good thing. Acting last you are reacting to him. vs weak oppoonents this is fine.
 
L

Labomba

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Put a bet out there. If you get called BB might have hit a small pair or be on draw, but at least now you have an idea of where you are. The turn will let you know if you want to continue or not. Unless I know I'm stone cold beat I'll bet the turn too. But if you check on the flop, you're basically giving up unless you plan to check raise.
 
tiltboy

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If I don’t have a read on the player my first thoughts are
1. What are the blinds
2. How much did I raise pre-flop
3. How much does my opponent have
4. Pot size
This would give me an idea of what my C-Bet would be but I would most definitely have a C-Bet more often then not particularly if I made a a strong preflop raise.
 
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joeeagles

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I just want to put my 2 cents on the different opinions that beavis and hot estelle have on position in heads up play.

It is true, as pointed out by beavis, that the "right to first bluff" can take down many pots for the fact that your opponent will miss the flop 2 times out of 3. What must be said though is that it all depends on your opponents skills. If he understands that you are c-betting he will reraise you with zilch and force you to fold. I've seen this play done many times by some pros on TV with hands as bad as 4-3o on a flop like, for ex., 9-7-2.

If we adjust our play to our opponent w/o falling into predictable patterns then strategies like c-betting when rags flop can be effective most times, but it will need to be mixed up with other types of plays in order to obtain that effect if not they can backfire.

When your heads up at the end of a tourney you will have to show that you occasionally raise with less than premium hands, just to make an example, so he won't necessarily think that you missed that flop. I'm not exactly an expert on heads up play but I can say that unless you set up your opponent with some decieving strategies acting out of position can be very expensive.

Playing heads up requires a great amount of skill and some players have mastered that area so good that basically they only play cash heads up games. If you look on pokerstars in the $25/$50 tables and up, you will find these guys playing and notice that all they play is heads up, you won't find them on full or 6 handed tables.
 
Beavis68

Beavis68

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dont get me wrong, I am not trying to say that acting first is the best spot, but when the pot is heads-up it is not as much of a problem as multiway.

yes, you can get raised with air, but that can happen if you act second too.
 
J

joeeagles

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No beavis I didn't misunderstand, actually I agree with you. All I was trying to say is that it depends on your opponent. Against the right ones acting first is actually better, because of the "right of 1st bluff" that you stated above.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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not me because i will reraise you with air ;/
 
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