PokerStars “All In Cash Out” Feature

[matiusaa]

I think that its not a good idea long term, but you have to pay a fee to mitigate variance. Its an interesting idea, cause you get less winrate, but on the other hand, there are less risk to run.

I think it was a brilliant idea for PS to get a new form of revenue other than rake.
If you have a good and rigorous bankroll management, then I think its not worth it.

 

[fundiver199]

Hey everyone, I had to hit search to find a thread on the subject, because it kind of ruined my morning. I had forgot about this new feature, and it popped up for the first time in my play. I was playing a zoom cash table, had $2 at the table. Received AA, villain had raised to me, I re-raised, he put me all in, of course I called . He had AK, then the cash out option appeared. I was 94% to win, and I was given an option to cash out for $1.66. In my mind, that meant they were offering me $1.66 of my original $2, so I declined. Of course the villain won, this is PokerStars. In hindsight, the $1.66 they offered me, would that have been in the addition to my original $2? So I would’ve finished the hand with $3.66 at the table?

If the total pot was 4$ then yes.

 

[nameless1537]

I'm going to revive this thread to see how people have been using this feature, now that we've had some time to figure it out.

So far, I've been burned by this a couple of times, both of them in rather stupid ways (on my part). The big one (that put me in tilt that took me a while to recover from) is when I stupidly decided to cash out when I only have 15% equity on an all-in call, and the river completed my hand and I lost out on 85% of the pot. Again, I was dumb. Another time (this time much smaller), I neglected to cash out with 85% equity when I made an all-in call, and I got rivered myself (but this time, it was for a very small pot as the villain was playing with a super short stack). Generally though, I haven't been using the feature -- would rather just accept fate of good or bad plays. My general attitude (IRL) around insurance for small-ticket items (like extra warranty for electronics, etc) is a huge money grab and generally not worth it.

But all this to say... how have you guys been playing it? Part of me is thinking that I might only cash out with any pot over 80% equity, let not cash out for anything less than that. In some ways, I'd rather lose everything on a bad call, but pay like... 20% insurance simply to avoid tilt when I get screwed by the turn or river card... but is that worth it at all?

Your thoughts?

 

[delirium1129]

I never use it. I think this is a rejection of my decision to go all-in!

 

[fundiver199]

I am not playing much at Stars these days, but I have used cash out in a few pots, where I was flipping or somewhat ahead like 70/30. I have not used it, when I was way ahead or way behind, or if the opponent was shortstacked.

My main reason for using cash out is, that I have withdrawn most of my funds from Stars, since I mainly play at 888 now, and moving around money is inconvenient. So for me its worth it to pay that 1% to reduce my variance and the risk, I will need to move funds from one poker site to another.

 

[zinzir]

Everyone decides it for themselves, you can't disable this option for other players.
So you disabled it - and once another player cashed out, you play not against him now, but against Pokerstars. So, in your hand - you lost it all, Pokerstars won a pot against you, another player cashed out his percentage by equity.

What you are saying makes sense. But do you know if anyone can buy this insurance or only the player having the best hand at the time. In other words if a player with 72 shoves from early position and gets called, can he opt-in for for the protection? Because it would make sense to go all-in every hand and steal blinds until someone calls and then buy insurance if you had a bad hand.

 

[nameless1537]

What you are saying makes sense. But do you know if anyone can buy this insurance or only the player having the best hand at the time. In other words if a player with 72 shoves from early position and gets called, can he opt-in for for the protection? Because it would make sense to go all-in every hand and steal blinds until someone calls and then buy insurance if you had a bad hand.

Once someone opts for insurance, they get paid out and then the rest of the players are play against the house instead of the insured player. The house then pays the remaining players the amount the hand ends up losing or receives the amount hand wins. For all other players in the hand, it is played exactly the same way unless they buy insurance.

To your question, if 72 shoves and gets called and has, let’s say 5% equity vs opponent who has 95%, then player who buys insurance with 72 gets paid 5% of the pot (less commission) no matter what happens in the hand. If the player who calls has 95% equity and opts to buy insurance, then he receives 95% of the pot less commission.

Again, once someone buys insurance, that player takes the cash based on equity and is no longer entitled to winning or losing. So if player with 72 buys insurance, he gets 5% of pot less insurance but if he hits the combination of cards (like 3 7s) that gets him the win, player is no longer eligible for win; the house (PStars) gets the winnings.

Note that insurance is not offered on river calls. It’s only when there are still cards to come out.

I know this to be true because this happened to me once where the river would have gotten me the win and I didn’t get the winnings. I was really quite pissed but it happens.

 

[zinzir]

Once someone opts for insurance, they get paid out and then the rest of the players are play against the house instead of the insured player. The house then pays the remaining players the amount the hand ends up losing or receives the amount hand wins. For all other players in the hand, it is played exactly the same way unless they buy insurance.

To your question, if 72 shoves and gets called and has, let’s say 5% equity vs opponent who has 95%, then player who buys insurance with 72 gets paid 5% of the pot (less commission) no matter what happens in the hand. If the player who calls has 95% equity and opts to buy insurance, then he receives 95% of the pot less commission.

Again, once someone buys insurance, that player takes the cash based on equity and is no longer entitled to winning or losing. So if player with 72 buys insurance, he gets 5% of pot less insurance but if he hits the combination of cards (like 3 7s) that gets him the win, player is no longer eligible for win; the house (PStars) gets the winnings.

Note that insurance is not offered on river calls. It’s only when there are still cards to come out.

I know this to be true because this happened to me once where the river would have gotten me the win and I didn’t get the winnings. I was really quite pissed but it happens.

Thank you for your reply. In my opinion it changes the game completely. I would go all in preflop with any hand, and pick up the blinds until someone calls, and then if I have a weak hand buy insurance and pay 1% of my stack and pass the bad odds to pokerstars, and if I have a premium hand I reject the insurance. If more players are doing that, Pokerstars will lose a tone of money unless they tweak the algorithm and then it's not worth playing anymore for anyone.

 

[nameless1537]

Thank you for your reply. In my opinion it changes the game completely. I would go all in preflop with any hand, and pick up the blinds until someone calls, and then if I have a weak hand buy insurance and pay 1% of my stack and pass the bad odds to Pokerstars, and if I have a premium hand I reject the insurance. If more players are doing that, Pokerstars will lose a tone of money unless they tweak the algorithm and then it's not worth playing anymore for anyone.

Not quite. If you buy insurance, you only get the equity of your hand at the time of calling. Buying insurance is not a get-out-of-jail card. So if you buy insurance when your equity is 10%, then you get 10% of the pot less commission. You actually already ate the bad odds at the time of calling.

And remember, even if you have 80% equity in a hand preflop, you can still easily lose your whole stack on the runout of the cards too. And if you buy insurance at 80%, then you’ll never win 100% of the pot less rake because insurance is actually costing you 20% of the pot + commission + rake.

I don’t think there is really a way you can game the system to “beat” Stars with this feature. All it does is help prevent some people from being sent into tilt as a result of a bad run out of cards. If you already have good tilt management and a good understanding of odds, then I think you shouldn’t pay to use the feature.

That’s where I’m landing with this anyway. If I know I’m vulnerable to tilt, then I would probably pay for the insurance.

 

[German629]

Hi the All! I think this feature "All In Cash Out" is not very good for the online poker,
and main for the players, because reduce responsibility, appear opportunity less to work
above your skill... This how a cushion under ass, and poker how a game starting to remind
casino! First time I saw similar feature on site PokerOK: may be they are the first created
and put this feature... Therefore, based on above, can wish only Good Luck!

 

[recerveau]

1% tax!
I see this just as another chance for them to make money! People just think about it. Sad!

 

[nameless1537]

Hi the All! I think this feature "All In Cash Out" is not very good for the online poker,
and main for the players, because reduce responsibility, appear opportunity less to work
above your skill... This how a cushion under ass, and poker how a game starting to remind
casino! First time I saw similar feature on site PokerOK: may be they are the first created
and put this feature... Therefore, based on above, can wish only Good Luck!

I've said this in a prior comment -- it does not affect responsibilty taking whatsoever. What it does do is for you to request to be paid in accordance to your hand's equity at the time of the call, regardless of how the rest of the hand unfolds. You cannot purchase insurance after the river card is dealt because your hand's equity is already determined before you purchase insurance.

If you call (or someone calls you) all-in and your hand ends up having only 10% equity once the opponent flips over his/her cards, you will only get paid 10% of the pot less 1% for the insurance fee. If you are idiotic to call all-in with a 72 against a nit who has gone all-in with AA, then insurance is not your get-out-of-jail card.

There is little or no correlation between this feature and skill. What it does do is give PStars another source of income from those who are not able to handle bat beats. Assuming that all of the cards are dealt at random, then in the long haul, PStars will break even in all of the insurance purchased, but will collect mightily on the insurance fee of 1% per pot of the hand dealt.

The more I am engaged in this discussion, the more I am seeing this as just silliness and another way for Stars to make money off of their players and I will not be purchasing insurance again unless I've had a series of bad beats and I'm vulnerable to tilt if I get another one. I'd rather save the money and work on controlling tilt.

 

[ArmiSoo7]

This opportunity is something amazing. I used it many times at Cash tables. When i saw it first time, i was confused, but than i realized what is this and i love it. Thumbs up for PokerStars.

 

[KristaK]

hi hi
i sometimes wish they would just leave poker alone as it is

 

[silentshowdown]

Is the calculation on pt4 changed?

I noticed that if we have taken the insurance, pt4 wouldn't have counted it.

 

[fundiver199]

Is the calculation on pt4 changed?

I noticed that if we have taken the insurance, pt4 wouldn't have counted it.

No. So if you use the cash-out option, PT4 will not track your actual results correctly. However if you consistently always use it, you can just look at your all-in adjusted C instead, which will then be identical to the actual C barring the 1% commission.

 

[fundiver199]

I don’t think there is really a way you can game the system to “beat” Stars with this feature.

Actually there is, and this might also be why, they have limited it to 10NL or lower, so that they dont risk getting taken for a significant amount of money, before they catch the cheaters.

All, you need to do, is to be two players sharing information about hole cards. Lets say for instance, that I get it all in preflop with AK, and my opponent flip over QQ. My buddy now tell me, that he folded A2, so I know, one of my outs is dead, and therefore I cash out. Whereas if he folded T4 or even better Q4, I let it run.

Now I am not recommending to do this. Its cheating, and if discovered, your account will be banned, and all funds confiscated. But it is possible and not even difficult at all.

 

[Santiman]

it makes me sick when i see 2-3 players go all-in.. see someone slightly ahead and decides to cash-out.. and the one that was behind cashed out.. but wins cause he riverred it and stars keeps all the cash! .. So gross

 

[fundiver199]

it makes me sick when i see 2-3 players go all-in.. see someone slightly ahead and decides to cash-out.. and the one that was behind cashed out.. but wins cause he riverred it and stars keeps all the cash! .. So gross

If both players cashed out, then the whole pot was already rewarded less 1% commission. So I dont really understand, what is gross about that situation?

 

[Poker Orifice]

Actually there is, and this might also be why, they have limited it to 10NL or lower, so that they dont risk getting taken for a significant amount of money, before they catch the cheaters.

All, you need to do, is to be two players sharing information about hole cards. Lets say for instance, that I get it all in preflop with AK, and my opponent flip over QQ. My buddy now tell me, that he folded A2, so I know, one of my outs is dead, and therefore I cash out. Whereas if he folded T4 or even better Q4, I let it run.

Now I am not recommending to do this. Its cheating, and if discovered, your account will be banned, and all funds confiscated. But it is possible and not even difficult at all.

Another way would be 'if' both players who knew each other were to raise & gii (w say QQ vs AK)... both could cash out. But how often would they be able to do this before Stars caught on? (I have no clue and actually just thought of this right this second after reading your post prior).

I've used cashout occasionally... idk.. just felt like it (ie. today in a 3-way allin on flop). My PT4 shows me losing 150bb's in that hand but I actually won 60bb's .. huh??
I read on PT4 forum (just now as I did a google search on the topic) and it said a fix would be in the next update (that was back in Oct. or Nov. 2019). I guess it hasn't happened yet.

 

[ekgbeat]

Seems confusing, and is a losing proposition in the long run. Just another way for PS to get an additional rake since the normal rake is capped.

 

[mkdrummey]

I like it. The number of times I get screwed in micro stakes when someone hits flush or runner runner I tend to use it all the time if it leaves me in profit or minimises my loss when I'm behind.

Run it twice I can't stand, and I have that option disabled,

 

[99TERRANCE99]

Don’t like the gimmick myself,you went in on the hand should be whatever the outcome is

 

[Bourgeois232]

I like the cash out option. I dont understand why i see alot of people cash out when they have the odds of winning then they lose and extra rake to PS. Im not sure if i saw correctly but i thought one person cashed out more than he started the hand with ? Maybe im mistaken. But other than that its cool. If i know im beat im taking my tiny bit back.

 

[gupiel0k69]

I was wondering how much this option affects the gameplay in itself. F.e. playing flush-draws in bigger pots makes more sense now and should be +ev. What i mean is in situation when you got a flush draw on the turn in a 3bet pot you can commit by check/raising or shoving almost everytime and the outcome is :either your opponent folds and you get the pot, if he calls you still got decent equity which you can cash-out variance free. I don't really know how profitable or non-ev that play would be, so i am opened for suggestions and discussion.