Pocket Aces Postflop

WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Ok here's the situation:
100bb stacks

UTG+1 raises to 4bbs
You're in MP with AA and reraise to 12bbs
Everyone folds but the original raiser who calls
(Pot 25.5 bb)

Flop comes 9c, 10s, 4d
Villain checks
We bet 15bbs
Villain goes All-in
It cost us the rest of our stack (73bbs) to call the bet

Now it seems that when the above scenario plays out if we call we're likely to see either QQ/KK or a set (also very rarely a straight draw from some hyper aggressive players). So if we assume that we're either WA/WB here are we just bound to pay off the set in these cases? Is there any way we should even THINK about folding?

This happened to me twice last night. Once I paid a set of 5s and once I doubled up when the villain showed KK, so I'm just interested to see what others have to say.
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

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You have to call here. Villain can have top pair, draw, or nothing. Of course set is also possible, but we cannot make decisions based on worst case scenarios.
 
tenbob

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Nice thread.

The situation here is very different to open raising x4 and having the same situation happen to you. In the case with a smaller pot small pairs are getting fantastic implied odds to set mine you, and most of the time we should fold.

Here its different though, simply because we have 3-bet pre-flop and shook off profitable implied odds for his set mine. We are up against JJ+ enough times to make up for the times that we run into 10's. I call. I rarely fold AA in situations like this, unless the board is very bad for our hand, ie boards of KQ10s without us holding the suited ace.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I agree there is no way we should fold here. I also agree that if the positions are reversed where we bet (4bbs) and are called by a single caller (preflop pot=9.5bbs) with the same action postflop, we should be folding against most opponents.
 
allndave

allndave

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i would have trouble folding either way , but that is why i am here reading and reading every day
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Now, i never slow play aces because from times to times player flop the nuts and I go all -in.

Not quite sure I understand what you mean? Are you saying that you would never fold AA post flop?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Pretty much echoing tenbob's comments here. We're a) ahead of his range at the moment, and b) raised enough preflop to have given a smaller pair bad odds and are therefore profiting long-term in these spots by calling.
 
I

idaho3fan

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I dont like the check raise at all,
am still thinking, JJ,QQ or KK
but maybe, 99 or 10 10,

12BB reraise preflop should have let them know we had a hand
fact that he calls set off some alarms also

think we have to call and pay off a set if there,
more times than not we should be ahead right now

jmo
 
H

holden12nz

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yeah i would find it hard to fold that hand with those circumstances and if you run into a set well hey thats just unlucky
 
F

frankieriver

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I think you need to call anyway if theres no pair on the flop they may have A-J A-10 so they will be dominated if they flop a set or hier then be patient theres always another hand
 
S

sta123

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yeah, def should call, only a set would beat you
 
H

Henreiman

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It would be helpful to know betting patterns, if they are in general a tight or loose player, etc. But based on just that information, and they're (seeming) hyper-aggressiveness, I would have to say call. They probably have A/10, or A/Q or A/K and are bluffing (IMO)
 
B

bw07507

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One thing to add here, at the limits that I am familiar with (10NL and 25NL) a set will almost never shove that flop. Almost everyone who flops a set on this board will try to extract some more value out of you. There are really no drawing hands that fit your range on this flop. Given this scenario, I call instantly every time.
 
CrackaNACtion

CrackaNACtion

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Nice Thread. But Really Ud Have To Call. If Uve Sat At The Table With The Guy For an Hour Or so U Geta Feel For How He Plays So It Makes Ur Choices Easier. But Yeah Id DIffently Call.
 
G

greener_lax

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it doesn't seem to me like he would have a set. if i had a set i'd slow play it, in this situation. there are no draws out there. u have to be putting your opponent on a hand like QQ KK or JJ.
 
C

cpett

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This is how AA worked for me tonight.
poker stars, $25 + $2.50 NL Hold'em Tournament, 10/20 Blinds, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): 1,971
SB: 2,890
BB: 4,139
UTG: 3,080
UTG+1: 2,970
UTG+2: 2,730
MP1: 3,340
MP2: 2,970
CO: 2,910

Pre-Flop: (30) A
clubnormal.gif
A
diamondnormal.gif
dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to 60, 3 folds, Hero raises to 180, 2 folds, UTG+2 calls 120

Flop: (390) J
heartnormal.gif
3
heartnormal.gif
7
heartnormal.gif
(2 Players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 200, UTG+2 calls 200

Turn: (790) 2
spadenormal.gif
(2 Players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 200, UTG+2 calls 200

River: (1,190) 8
diamondnormal.gif
(2 Players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 200, UTG+2 raises to 2,150 and is All-In, Hero calls 1,191 and is All-In

Results: 3,972 Pot
Hero showed A
clubnormal.gif
A
diamondnormal.gif
(a pair of Aces) and LOST (-1,971 NET)

UTG+2 showed 7
spadenormal.gif
8
heartnormal.gif
(two pair, Eights and Sevens) and WON 3,972 (+2,001 NET)
 
marcogd

marcogd

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Sorry about your luck, cpett.

However, I'm definetly calling this. If he's got a set, so be it, but he won't often enough so you'll get paid off most of the time.
 
dj11

dj11

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Assuming villain has a poker brain, I think the call of the pf reraise rules out KK, QQ,JJ, but still allows TT, 99.

With KK, QQ for most sharp players a 3 bet preflop shove would or could be nearly automatic, the JJ could go either way, and the set mining TT,99, call fits.

So perhaps extra weight should go to suited AK, KQ, or possibly even QJ preflop calls. In the case of the QJ, villain is essentially committed to the hand, and knows his only shot is filling, and semi-bluffing you off the hand.

My feeling here is that after villains pf raise, your correct move would be the shove.

If villain has no poker brain, then his EP raise could have been of the floating steal type, and he hasn't the mind to realize he should have folded rather than call. He could be playing anything.

If I sat and thought about this hand, while holding the AA, I could eventually be convincing myself that I was beat, and thus fold. However!, The big book of poker odds says you just about have to call here.:(
 
zachvac

zachvac

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It's been explained, basically the big thing is that a set is probably not shoving here. Now if you are both good players and he knows you are a good player he may do this to make you think he can't have a good hand and then pay off with an over pair. No draws, so no reason to push with a set. You could have JQ or something I guess but a smart set would not shove to a board like that. I think we see more pocket pairs and sometimes we'll even see AK trying to bully us and figuring even if we do call they have 6 outs twice. I think we have to make that call.
 
Merlin333

Merlin333

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I get it!!

I get it! It seems that online that when I have pocket Aces the board is always a tricky one. To my mind when a caller in that situation calls a less than all in bet the board pairs or there is an obvious straight or flush draw you (like always) have to reassess the situation.

While I, like I suspect everyone else, hates this situation and hates to get caught in it, I fold only when I have bet high enough to deduce a minimally reasonable player would fold and the board shows a clear vulnerability to my Aces. For example, a straight draw or flush draw suited board off my aces or high paired cards (expecting a big bet would cause a good player to fold small pairs).

Aces getting caught is not that rare, but barring a situation or player who does not present a clear valid attack, I'm busting him or he's busting me here.

Merlin333 :cool:
 
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S

sagebomb

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I cant se a reason to fold, unless you have reason to belive that they might have hit thier low pocket pair, then its still your game
 
5

52poutanes

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i think it depends a lot on the player....what sort of player is he? how has he been playing certian hands? one thing is for sure you can definitely put him on some sort of low to mid pair when he smooth calls your reraise 6s throught to 10s....its definitely tough to lay these hands down because he could have jj qq kk in this spot, but its also possible he flopped a set of 9s or 10s too.....tough spot, but id say you just have to go with your read on the player here
 
jorlan

jorlan

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thats why u should raise 3-4 times the blinds and make a strong continiuty bet to get ride searchers or get all of it pre-flpo and expect to get call
 
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