Playing JJ preflop to a re-raise

[Aleksei]

I don't think you should be folding preflop, in this situation your hand is not strong enough to raise get it in with no reads but JJ is strong enough to continue with and if you flop a set your gonna win all the money

You're gonna flop a set very infrequently and an overcard over half the time; and you have to put a third of your stack in against (and I cannot stress this enough) TWO, PEOPLE.

Seeing a flop in this spot is retarded.

 

[vinnie]

Live rake here, btw, is 10% up to $10 per pot, plus $5 per hour time charge, so it’s fairly awful.

Wow, that is horrible! It still doesn't change the math much. For example, I said earlier that you needed 29% equity to call a shove, after raising to $90, with no rake it's actually 29.07%. With $10 rake coming out of the pot, we need 29.67% equity. We're playing a pot high enough above the cap that rake isn't a huge factor in this specific hand.

While 4-betting JJ is potentially +EV in this spot, I still think folding is fine. You've only put $15 in the pot, folding is a small mistake--if it's a mistake at all. If you don't have the bankroll to handle big swings, avoid high variance plays. It is definitely high variance to 4-bet pre-flop here.

 

[JKlay7]

You're gonna flop a set very infrequently and an overcard over half the time; and you have to put a third of your stack in against (and I cannot stress this enough) TWO, PEOPLE.

Seeing a flop in this spot is retarded.

Seriously you don't think we have the correct odds to see a flop at a 1/2 live game?

 

[JKlay7]

Assuming CO is going to call your getting like 5 to 1 on your money preflop to see a flop with JJ which can still very well be best hand. I guess its fine to fold to prevent yourself from making a big mistake so whatever I guess either play is fine but don't tell me seeing a flop is retarded

 

[Aleksei]

Seriously you don't think we have the correct odds to see a flop at a 1/2 live game?

NO. If we flop an overcard vs two people in a 3bet pot (out of position with no initiative to boot), we have to fold; and we're only gonna flop the set 1 time in 8.

 

[vinnie]

Assuming CO is going to call your getting like 5 to 1 on your money preflop to see a flop with JJ which can still very well be best hand. I guess its fine to fold to prevent yourself from making a big mistake so whatever I guess either play is fine but don't tell me seeing a flop is retarded

We have $190 left in our stack, and the pot will be $104-$129 on the flop. An SPR of 1.5-1.8... we really need to plan to commit regardless of the flop. Calling to fold to overs is burning money with stacks this deep. Of course, if we get in on a flop with overs, we're probably crushed. Even the best flops, rainbow ones like 9-5-3 only give us 55% equity against the Villain's whole range.

We're not getting nearly the right price in implied odds to try and hit a set (we want to make $500 and even if we get both other players all-in, we won't make that). Our hand is almost never the best when stacks go in. We're going to just be burning money calling here.

Calling to see a flop is really, really bad.

Folding > Raising >>>>>>>>>>>> Calling

 

[stately7]

Here are 3 small mistakes I made that don't make any difference.

• I forgot to add in $3 from the blinds - doing that makes this slightly more +EV
• In the 3betting ranges I constructed for villain (10%,15%), I included JJ,AJo,AJs and there are 13 less hand combinations within that range, because of hero's hand JJ. This makes villain betting that range only actually betting 9% and 14%. - makes it slightly less EV
• Lastly I didn't include JJ in the range he would have odds to continue with. Makes practiclly no difference as it's only one hand combo with 50% equity.

I went down the line of right 3betting ranges, and even if he cbets the exact 5% of hands that have proper odds to call the shove, the move is +$6.62 EV. So it doesn't start being minus EV until around a 3-4% range.

Thanks for posting the math on the hand, seems pretty clear the 4-bet all in preflop had merit here, even though I'm happy enough with the fold for now.

My main take away from this situation and the math, now, is that i didn't properly consider this solid, decent looking player's 3-betting range. Of course the better the player, the wider it should be. The fold actually makes more sense against the weak/tight or fishier player in this spot, right?