Omaha Hi - Coin Flip Flop

[camtheram13]

Lately I've been doing more observing on the poker sites than playing... Lol not by choice but always learning is good

I've noticed a lot of Omaha Hi players coin flip trips vs A high flush on the flop. It can go either way. I've seen the flush draw push all-in first and the other way around.

Is this proper play???

I feel like calling all-in with trips on the flop is kind of reckless because unless the board pairs or you hit quads, that is your best hand. The A high flush seems like only a good idea if you have another way out like A high flush and two pair. Thoughts?

 

[Aldito]

My brain is not wired for PLO math

 

[camtheram13]

My brain is not wired for PLO math

Hmmm... Maybe this comes down to position?

 

[kmixer]

Straight and flush draws run so big in PLO that trips are rarely ahead by much. However they need to be played aggro IMO until the board tells us we have to worry. If the early action indicates villain is on the draw and it hits than trips are likely going down at showdown.

 

[TheUndesirable]

Omaha is about gambling at the right time in the right spots. Calculating how many outs to the nuts you have is a good indication of whether or not its a good spot to get your money in. You shouldn't be drawing to straights or flushes on paired boards and avoid drawing to non nut hands. Be prepared to fold trip on wet boards as they are just almost never ahead.

 

[BenLZ]

Lately I've been doing more observing on the poker sites than playing... Lol not by choice but always learning is good

I've noticed a lot of Omaha Hi players coin flip trips vs A high flush on the flop. It can go either way. I've seen the flush draw push all-in first and the other way around.

Is this proper play???

I feel like calling all-in with trips on the flop is kind of reckless because unless the board pairs or you hit quads, that is your best hand. The A high flush seems like only a good idea if you have another way out like A high flush and two pair. Thoughts?

Going all in with a set on a one suited board is not a winning play. The A high flush is always good to get in, it's the stone cold nuts and you don't really need redraws in that case.

 

[camtheram13]

Straight and flush draws run so big in PLO that trips are rarely ahead by much. However they need to be played aggro IMO until the board tells us we have to worry. If the early action indicates villain is on the draw and it hits than trips are likely going down at showdown.

I think a lot of people like to bluff the flush, too. I'm thinking if top set hits and nut flush is on draw, both need to bet, maybe not pot-sized bets but enough to present value. If the nut flush doesn't hit on turn then tight players usually fold but I've seen the occasional donk that won't let flush draw (even non-nut) go till showdown.

 

[kmixer]

I think a lot of people like to bluff the flush, too. I'm thinking if top set hits and nut flush is on draw, both need to bet, maybe not pot-sized bets but enough to present value. If the nut flush doesn't hit on turn then tight players usually fold but I've seen the occasional donk that won't let flush draw (even non-nut) go till showdown.

It is often correct to draw to the nut flush until the river is revealed. If you have a straight draw to go with that flush draw then calling off pot size bets is very typical. I would caution against drawing to any non nut hands if there are pot sized bets ahead of you.

 

[BenLZ]

It is often correct to draw to the nut flush until the river is revealed. If you have a straight draw to go with that flush draw then calling off pot size bets is very typical. I would caution against drawing to any non nut hands if there are pot sized bets ahead of you.

You're calling two pot sized bets on the flop and turn with the nut flush draw? If you got a straight draw to go with a flush draw I'm raising that in most cases. The thing is, the equity in that hand is tied to both the turn and the river and you won't really have odds to call a river bet when you blank the turn. A 16 out straight wrap and nut flush draw is good enough to shove with regardless of stack sizes.

 

[camtheram13]

You're calling two pot sized bets on the flop and turn with the nut flush draw? If you got a straight draw to go with a flush draw I'm raising that in most cases. The thing is, the equity in that hand is tied to both the turn and the river and you won't really have odds to call a river bet when you blank the turn. A 16 out straight wrap and nut flush draw is good enough to shove with regardless of stack sizes.

I may not be understanding you correctly but shoving a pot sized bet on the flop with a straight and nut flush draw might be too aggressive. If you get called and blank the turn, you can only pot size bluff or fold. If your opponent folds to your flop raise, you've taken away your ability to extract more money from them.

The sound way to play this sort of draw on the flop would be to bet 2/3 the pot. This will most likely get called and if you blank on the turn, you can get out for less money.

 

[BenLZ]

You realize that draws can be statistically ahead of top set? PLO is a drawing game. It's a semi-bluff, you can't value bet it. You can't be afraid to get your money in when you're ahead.

 

[camtheram13]

You realize that draws can be statistically ahead of top set? PLO is a drawing game. It's a semi-bluff, you can't value bet it. You can't be afraid to get your money in when you're ahead.

I completely agree that certain draws put you ahead of a set and that PLO is a drawing game but my point is that you get the same effect with a 2/3 bet on flop as opposed to a pot sized bet.

 

[BenLZ]

Eh, you get better fold equity with a pot sized bet. A big part of these draws is fold equity. IMO, you want to get as much money in as you can.

 

[baudib1]

you can't be afraid to get your money in behind either.

 

[camtheram13]

Eh, you get better fold equity with a pot sized bet. A big part of these draws is fold equity. IMO, you want to get as much money in as you can.

Well then it comes to whether or not you want to play tight or aggressive.

 

[BenLZ]

I play both.

 

[kmixer]

Well then it comes to whether or not you want to play tight or aggressive.

I play both.

You MUST play both.

Although I find myself playing way too nit also....lol

 

[BenLZ]

Yeah I have been trying to open up my game. Is it just me or are these games not fun unless there's raising? Limping kills PLO games it seems.

 

[Tygran]

Lately I've been doing more observing on the poker sites than playing... Lol not by choice but always learning is good

I've noticed a lot of Omaha Hi players coin flip trips vs A high flush on the flop. It can go either way. I've seen the flush draw push all-in first and the other way around.

Is this proper play???

I feel like calling all-in with trips on the flop is kind of reckless because unless the board pairs or you hit quads, that is your best hand. The A high flush seems like only a good idea if you have another way out like A high flush and two pair. Thoughts?

Uh... Depends on the trips and the opponent... and the other 3 cards in your hand among other things.

Also you say vs an "Ace high flush"... if that's ALL your opponent (or you) has you shouldn't be aggressively stacking that off pretty much ever... A bare flush draw (even the BNFD) is not a good hand in omaha, and it's significantly less good on a paired board.

Here's an example of the above situation:

board: 9d9s6d
Hand Equity Wins Ties 7h9hTcQs 76.95% 631 0 Ad2d4h5c 23.05% 189 0
The trips are massive favorites over the BNFD.

However, draws in Omaha run way way WAY bigger than a measely flush draw. If you have a pair the NFD for example... here's how the equity changes.

board: 9d9sQs
Hand Equity Wins Ties 7h9hTcJs 70.73% 580 0 AsQcTs4h 29.27% 240 0

Note: In this specific example, the trips also have an extra 4 out gutshot straight draw... let's take that away

board: 8d8sKs
Hand Equity Wins Ties 7h8hTc5d 68.17% 559 0 AsKcTs4h 31.83% 261 0
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked

OK, not a huge difference but still a difference.


Now, the above draws absolutely blow in PLO... let's take a look at an example of trips vs a decent draw.

board: 8d8sTs
Hand Equity Wins Ties 7h8h4d5d 61.83% 507 0 AsQsJd9h 38.17% 313 0
Edit · Link · 2+2 · Deuces Cracked

Better.... but we are still well behind with the draw... here btw we have a NFD (6 outs btw, not 9 since the 4s, 7s and 5s make boats for the trips) and a straight wrap... but again not all the outs are clean... the clean outs are 2 nines and 2 queens. again, the remaining 2 7s boat up the opponent and we already counted the spades for the flush draw. Lesson here, do not overcount your outs and always consider that many of them may not be clean. This is double true since on any paired board where you have a straight draw and your opponenet has trips, generally speaking you should expect your opponents other cards to be near the card that tripped up...which means most of the time your straight outs are compromised. If you are playing someone who routinely plays hands that hit this board for trips, but the others cards are scattered... do not leave the table till he is broke, cause it will happen sooner rather than later.




Blah blah... I could go on and on..but are you starting to get the pictures?

paired boards = very very bad for straight and flush draws cause if you get a ton of action, you are rarely in good shape.

Note: None of the above takes into account the very non-insignificant possibility you are drawing absolutely dead to T8xx, 88xx or TTxx.




Now, having said all this... omaha is very much a drawing game... but know what your draws are. Forget hold em, this isn't hold em.. Or to put it in simpler terms: *ahem* IF ALL YOU HAVE IS A DRAW YOU CAN GET IN HOLD EM, DO NOT STACK OFF WITH IT*. PERIOD.

(* - in a heads up pot)


Now...exercise for the day. How many outs do you have here?

Your hand: AdQdJsTs

Board: 4d8d9s



What is your equity do you think vs someone with 99xx?

 

[BenLZ]

What is your equity do you think vs someone with 99xx?

Eh...maybe 50%? They might even be a little behind here, I know a set is behind a 16 out wrap and FD, this one is a 13 out straight draw. Yeah, 99 is at 47.5% and if we change it to AJT7 it sinks to 43.4%.