Need advice.. completing SB

[widowmaker89]

well folded to the SB and 2 limpers is completely 100% different.

I havent addressed raising really at all but it can be a good play sometimes if you are playing two people who limp/fold a lot. However id probably do this with the same cards I mentioned to limp with (as well as big hands), including some rags just isnt needed here, your range is wide enough and if you want to widen it just increase your raise/limp with the SC type hands. A caveat here is not many people limp/fold so dont do this into a 45/5 who calls a raise 44% of the time and doesnt fold post flop.

As for your Harrington comment earlier I just realized where he said that and it was in the HU section(as in only 2 people total not folded around). This is also 100% different since the SB has position is said situations.

 

[Double-A]

Thoughts of a little fish, money i have put in the pot is no longer mine therefore i do not need to defend.
I am getting a reduced price to call therefore it is good value but cards with very little chances of winning are always bad value, i chose to relax my starting hand requirements and hope to win a small pot if i hit hard. This will give the impression i am a looser player than i am, if the cards are shown

Are you saying that fish think that money they have put in the pot is no longer theirs? If so then our definitions of fish differ quite a bit. Blinds are bets and all bets belong to the pot. They're bad bets because they're made blind but bets none the less. I don't think a fish would think that way at all.

Blinds do need to be defended from steal attempts. Sometimes odds will justify loosening up starting hand requirements. Neither apply to the OP's question.

Playing rags, out of position, against multiple opponents isn't defending your blind. It's just bad poker.

If you're not going to fold rags in the SB then what are you going to fold?

 

[CanOkie]

I believe this is a leak in my game, but what advice can you give me for completing in the SB in a MTT.

ie: 2 limpers in and you have rag cards, should I complete to see the flop or just give up the blind. I have looked at it as I'm getting (I assume) good odds to see the flop, but I feel I have spewed too many chips in the long run.

In general, I play the SB looser than my starting hands but junk is junk no matter what. don't get married to the hand just b/c you already put money in the pot. Once you're in the SB, that money you put in is not yours. don't feel too obligated to defend but don't let others run over you either. Your goal should be to find that harmony.

If you are playing the player then you can make a play by raising and taking down the pot but that play won't work every time so use it selectively and only against BB and/or another weak player.

GL

 

[JiuJitsuBraz]

It's good pot odds only if you have lots of opponents in. Those crap hands, I just fold them.

For me, a rule of thumb is, never call small blind, raise or fold. (certain situations might ask for a call, bust mostly, it's raise or fold for me).

 

[WOBogey]

Four or more limpers I will just call, but with two I need a hand, like suited connectors or a pocket pair. What is cool is when 4 or more have limped and the BB bumps it up 4-5 times the BB. That takes guts to do that with nothing!!! Usually they all fold.

 

[sketchpad]

i think that the biggest mistake is that people feel that they have to call and see the flop.
just my opinion but try a raise too here, not something stupid like all in but something that says i have some cards here. then you can either bluff the flop, or if you hit your garbage then a check raise is always fun...but really, its all depending on how you think the other players are gonna respond. its not like poker is always the same...

 

[Harthgrepa]

If its complete trash, I just fold the small blind. You might have good odds the call preflop, but if you have only 2 people in the pot, you dont have the odds to call and hit 2 pair or maybe 3 of a kind-which is what you'll need to hit in order to continue the hand. Also, you'll be playing out of position as well. You might hit and your hand will be disguised, but you'll usually miss and end up check/folding the flop.

Quite a few players, especially those who are inexperienced, complete the SB way too much. I've read it, heard it said in videos, by successful players on tv and by people sitting next to me at live games. Generally, If I wouldn't play it late position, I'm probably not playing it on the SB.

~H

 

[HomerQ]

I've found almost 75% of the time i call in the sb i end up folding adn lose chips so if i have rags in sb blind i usually fold

 

[ukpi_hutch]

I think there is a time and a place for calling BB with rags, and tournaments aren't it

Well it is ok in the earlier stages but when the blinds begin to mean something you may as well burn your chips.

 

[jdeliverer]

Thoughts of a little fish, money i have put in the pot is no longer mine therefore i do not need to defend.
I am getting a reduced price to call therefore it is good value but cards with very little chances of winning are always bad value, i chose to relax my starting hand requirements and hope to win a small pot if i hit hard. This will give the impression i am a looser player than i am, if the cards are shown, which is nice.
No-one has suggested this is a good time for a squeeze but with only 2 limpers and the BB to go i would give some serious thought to raising, i want to know what they limped with (i.e. information bet) if i am playing a pot and i am happy to take the pot now if i think they may fold (calling stations excepted).
Be positive in every position, maybe i mean relaxed, don't feel pressured to play or fold because you have payed a blind, i think off paying the blinds as a discount into the flop or hand, i look forward to the monsters i am dealt there and i have no choice about paying them.
If i said anything stupid somebody let me know i'll delete it.

Well... money in the pot is no longer yours but your small blind is only sort of in the pot. What I mean is that having the small blind out there makes the price of calling less, while keeping the pot size large. This means you can call with more hands knowing that you are getting good odds on your money.

I've found almost 75% of the time i call in the sb i end up folding adn lose chips so if i have rags in sb blind i usually fold

But if you win 7x what you put in 25% of your time, you're making a huge profit. You still have to take into account the odds you are getting on the money you put in by completing the small blind. I don't know exactly the probability of flopping two pair or better, but 7:1 is pretty goods odds to try and hit a hand, especially with a hand that has a good chance to connect (e.g. suited connectors).

 

[glworden]

But if you win 7x what you put in 25% of your time, you're making a huge profit. You still have to take into account the odds you are getting on the money you put in by completing the small blind. I don't know exactly the probability of flopping two pair or better, but 7:1 is pretty goods odds to try and hit a hand, especially with a hand that has a good chance to connect (e.g. suited connectors).

I think it's hard to fold the SB with 7:1 or 9:1 odds out there. All of you who ask what to do when the flop misses: It's pretty simple. Check, fold.

James makes a good point but doesn't touch on the real beauty of a cheap call. It's not your sevenne odds, it's the implied odds. The hand very rarely progress by checks all the way to the river. So just because you call with the SB doesn't mean you're going to win the hand and your 7XX on the flop. You'll probably have to play to the river in order to win. IN most cases, you're probably going to lose MORE than that initial call. Since you're in worst position, it's tough play and hard to win UNLESS you flop some kind of hidden monster.

If you have a hand you can check/call or check/raise with, then you're likely to win much more than the 7:1 ratio and that initial call now looks great. It doesn't happen often, but my big winning nights are usually due to just a few hands, and this could be one. So the upside is pretty darned big because of implied odds, and the risk can be drastically limited if you;re disciplined enough to fold speculative hands post-flop.

The completion is possibly justified from a clearly statistical basis, although this thread has reached no consensus on that. Beyond that, it presents some great opportunities for the disciplined creative player.

If you're losing a lot with it, you're probably fishing too hard post-flop.

In answer to your other question, James, the probability of flopping two pair using both hole cards is 2%. Trips using one hole card is 1.35%. So if you're trying to justify the call purely on the basis of connecting with a probable winning hand on the flop, you can't.

G the W

 

[JesterGT]

The biggest danger of playing from the SB because the odds are good is getting stuck with a second best hand. You have to be ready to release if you're going to make those calls.