mini raising big hands to raise preflop

[stormswa]

this is not my concept, I read it in a magazine but it makes great sense.

usually after one of my A.C. trips I spend about the next week thinking about my hands I played and trying to see if I could of played any of them better. At 1st I thought my QQ fold was a terrific fold but thinking back it really wasnt that hard of a fold. After i initially put the bet of $25 in and the guy called and the other guy came over the top of me for $100 what hand can he possibly have? With a caller before him he has to have KK or AA right?

now there is a better way for him to play his KK here ( I still think he wasnt lying when he said he had KK). The better way for him to play this would be to mini raise that KK. So if I bet $25 then make it $50 preflop. I would still put him on big hand because you have to have a big hand to re-raise a raiser preflop but I would have to call that extra $25 with QQ and most likley the limper would also. Now I'm a solid player and would most likely be able to get away from my QQ after the flop. But lets assume the other caller is a weak player, will he be able to? most likely not if he caught a piece of the flop. Weak players love to bluff on the flop.

so even if he takes this pot down on the flop he makes a extra $50 that he normally wouldn't of made. Sure he takes the chance of someone hitting a set but again that is a 12% chance and I think making the extra $50 or more will make up for the times someone hits set. By him raising so much on the flop even the weak players are able to lay down big hands. If weak player has JJ or QQ and all small cards flop you most likely are going to stack them with your overpair to theirs.

now this concept only works if there is a raise before you and not a ton of limper's. Thinking back I misplayed my 2 AA hands by betting 2 much and letting people get away from their hands. Think about it do you really want to scare everyone out preflop holding AA or KK, even with KK I don't want AK to fold. If he hits a ace it will be very obvious he hit it and I will be able to get away from my hand.

 

[joosebuck]

ive started playing my big hands so much more passively. especially in middle mtt stages, and i love it. with the influx of TAG CBET ur mom to death players, it's a godsend.

 

[ChuckTs]

OK this is a little confusing without an example, but I get your drift. I don't agree with it though. This play is also pretty read-dependent. I will never make an inviting raise like this against a looser, aggressive player.

Basically are you saying that, in a situation where it's glaringly clear that you have AA or KK (say reraising a super-tight player), then the play suggested by the magazine would be to make a smaller raise and trap him with good pot odds?

I don't like it because:

1) If my opponent is strong enough to toss QQ in that position, I'm sitting at the wrong table. I don't want my opponents to be that strong; I want them to be inexperienced enough that they will make mistakes like stacking off vs. a super tight player with QQ preflop.

2) If he is in fact that strong, then I don't really mind the small reraise. He's going to have to call, and as you mentioned he will only hit ~1/8 or 1/9 times so it's a decent play. But against a bunch of limpers, this is a terrible play IMO. All we're doing is giving good odds to anyone else who has any half-decent hand here, and they'll feel especially inclined to call if they're the type to see alot of flops. We obviously don't want that against 67s or a smaller pair; in that case there would be a %24 instead of %12 chance of our opponents hitting a set. Still favourable for us, but we can make it much more favourable by just plain raising more.

Again, if the limpers are TAG and solid enough not to get involved with the good pot odds and a decent hand that could break my kings, then I'm at the wrong table.

Let's lay out an example hand:

$2/5 NLHE (as in your example)
You sit on the button with KK at a 9-handed table. The action goes:

Limp, limp, limp, 2 folds, raise to $25, you minreraise to $50...

Pot: $97

So for the limpers, they're getting 97:45 or ~2.2:1

So not as great pot odds as I thought, but you're definitely giving the original raiser great odds (3.9:1). This play looks even more like AA/KK than had you raised for ~$100.

I don't think it's a terrible play, and I'm sure at the medium/high stakes it has its place, but at the limits I play at I just pot it. Even at the higher stakes, tight aggressive players are of course occasionally making plays at pots, and in this situation we don't necessarily have to have AA/KK %100 of the time in our opponents' eyes.

I mean really, unless the player is supertight, do you really fold QQ to a $100 standard reraise preflop?

I suppose what it all comes down to is your ability to lay the hand down post-flop (holding KK). That way, you can make his preflop call a long-term bad call by not paying him off, and thus filling up his implied odds to make up for the bad pot odds preflop. But even then, by giving your opponents nearly 4:1, it almost makes up for the hand being a 4.5:1 dog with pot odds alone.

Well I'm gonna stop typing now because I know I'm ranting

Good post, stormswa. Got me thinking.
Hope my rant made sense.

 

[stormswa]

see bold

OK this is a little confusing without an example, but I get your drift. I don't agree with it though. This play is also pretty read-dependent. I will never make an inviting raise like this against a looser, aggressive player.

Basically are you saying that, in a situation where it's glaringly clear that you have AA or KK (say reraising a super-tight player), then the play suggested by the magazine would be to make a smaller raise and trap him with good pot odds?

basically im saying you are trying to trap the weak player in the middle, the strong player is most likely going to fold on flop.

I don't like it because:

1) If my opponent is strong enough to toss QQ in that position, I'm sitting at the wrong table. I don't want my opponents to be that strong; I want them to be inexperienced enough that they will make mistakes like stacking off vs. a super tight player with QQ preflop.

a good player is not going to go all in pre-flop with QQ, but they are willing to call the mini bet. QQ is very easy to fold when someone puts a $100 bet into a $50 pot pre-flop that is way way to obvious they have AA or KK.

2) If he is in fact that strong, then I don't really mind the small reraise. He's going to have to call, and as you mentioned he will only hit ~1/8 or 1/9 times so it's a decent play. But against a bunch of limpers, this is a terrible play IMO. All we're doing is giving good odds to anyone else who has any half-decent hand here, and they'll feel especially inclined to call if they're the type to see alot of flops. We obviously don't want that against 67s or a smaller pair; in that case there would be a %24 instead of %12 chance of our opponents hitting a set. Still favourable for us, but we can make it much more favourable by just plain raising more.

in original post I said you cant do this with a bunch of limper's. Most likely those 6-7 hands are not going to call the origional raise, remember I said you do this after being raised you raise double.

Again, if the limpers are TAG and solid enough not to get involved with the good pot odds and a decent hand that could break my kings, then I'm at the wrong table.

Let's lay out an example hand:

$2/5 NLHE (as in your example)
You sit on the button with KK at a 9-handed table. The action goes:

Limp, limp, limp, 2 folds, raise to $25, you minreraise to $50...

Pot: $97

So for the limpers, they're getting 97:45 or ~2.2:1

So not as great pot odds as I thought, but you're definitely giving the original raiser great odds (3.9:1). This play looks even more like AA/KK than had you raised for ~$100.

yes a good player will realize you are very strong but you are not targeting good players when you sit you are targeting weak players. Weak players wont know you are strong, the limper's have to call $48 and have only invested $2 so most likely they are folding but the original raiser only has to call $25 and has invested $25 so its pretty easy call for high pockets. It works even better when you can trap a weak player in middle like guy raises, guy calls and you reraise double.

I don't think it's a terrible play, and I'm sure at the medium/high stakes it has its place, but at the limits I play at I just pot it. Even at the higher stakes, tight aggressive players are of course occasionally making plays at pots, and in this situation we don't necessarily have to have AA/KK %100 of the time in our opponents' eyes.

I mean really, unless the player is supertight, do you really fold QQ to a $100 standard reraise preflop?

in a 1/2 game with max buy-in of $300 yes I do alot, I only have $25 invested and by calling the $100 im pretty much going all the way unless a K or A come out. I pick my spots very very carefully, I feel I can outplay them and would rather get my money in better. What is he raising with besides AA or KK there? AK no way.

I suppose what it all comes down to is your ability to lay the hand down post-flop (holding KK). That way, you can make his preflop call a long-term bad call by not paying him off, and thus filling up his implied odds to make up for the bad pot odds preflop. But even then, by giving your opponents nearly 4:1, it almost makes up for the hand being a 4.5:1 dog with pot odds alone.

Well I'm gonna stop typing now because I know I'm ranting

Good post, stormswa. Got me thinking.

np thats why you guys keep me around
I feel I left alot of money on the table Monday night by raising too much with AA preflop. I feel I play better then the average 1/2 player on flop and would rather of just mini raised them and outplayed them rest of hand.

Hope my rant made sense.

comments in bold.

I do understand what you are saying and I do not expect you to do this with TAG players. This is to be done to weak calling stations, or maniacs that like to push with any pair on flop always thinking you have AK and missed and there A7 is good on a board of 267. Against strong players preflop im raising big or if its Heads Up calling and check raising big on flop.