May Stud, Stud Hi-Low, and Razz hands discussion

[slycbnew]

Hmmm, so here are the ranges. I'm not bothering w the fh (and yeah, I see that the fh + low is impossible, duh ).

Stud Hi/Lo Simulation What's this?
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand equity Scoops
5c 2s | 6d 8h 7s 57.60% 159,655
LL, BB, 99+, *d *d | Ad Ah 5s 42.40% 68,215
2+2 · Deuces Cracked


I think I'm being generous to our hand by giving him broadway cards in the hole? But even removing them keeps us as a 56/44 favorite, and scooping 2/3 of the time. So this is a clear raise for value on fifth street, right?

If we make our straight on 6th or 7th, we become a huge favorite against that range even if he picks up a low card or the case A, so we're shoveling money in the pot. We can't be beat both ways if we make our straight, right? And there's a very strong chance we're scooping. So no need to worry if he starts capping?

If we brick 6th and he picks up any low card, his hand becomes a 61/39 favorite and scoops 75% of the time, so in that event we would call 6th given pot odds. If we brick 7th as well, we can't find a fold given pot odds, can we?

fwiw, I'm having problems w propokertools, some of the controls on the page won't work in my browser - so, for example, no dead cards are included in the sim, I'm also unable to input more than 2 hands. I'm going to post in SQA and see if one of the computer gurus has a suggestion...

 

[c9h13no3]

ProPokerTools Stud Hi/Lo Simulation
363,485 trials (Randomized)
dead cards: 8♣ 3♥ Q♣

Hand (Pot equity)
5c 2s 6d 8h (37.85%)
A *, K K, J J, L L | Ad Ah (62.15%)

In a smaller pot, I'd fold 4th. I think 3rd street is a little suspect too, calling two cold from an ace with a trey missing, without a high hand in the pot. But I'd probably make that call as well.

I'd consider raising 5th against timid opponents, and calling vs. aggressive ones. If we catch a nine or four, and our opponent will keep betting, I'd much rather put two bets in on that street, rather than on this one that's pretty thin value. I'd generally lean towards flatting 5th though, as the edge is pretty thin and we can raise later in the hand on most 6th streets.

 

[slycbnew]

fwiw, wizzim has a razz hand posted in HA, and I posted a stud hand.

 

[c9h13no3]

The fish do funny things after I re-raise them with a Q up...


*** 3rd STREET ***
Reg - Pocket [H H 5c]
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh]
Bad Reg - Pocket [H H Js]
C9H13NO3 - Bring-In $0.50
Bad Reg - Folds
Reg - Folds
Fish #1 - Raises $1 to $1
C9H13NO3 - Raises $1.50 to $2
Fish #1 - Raises $2 to $3
C9H13NO3 - Calls $1
*** 4TH STREET ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h]
C9H13NO3 - Bets $1
Fish #1 - Calls $1
*** 5TH STREET ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d]
C9H13NO3 - Bets $2
Fish #1 - Calls $2
*** 6TH STREET ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh 2h]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h]
C9H13NO3 - Bets $2
Fish #1 - Calls $2
*** RIVER ***
Fish #1 - Pocket [H H As Ah Jh 2h H]
C9H13NO3 - Pocket [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h 6s]
C9H13NO3 - Checks
Fish #1 - Checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
C9H13NO3 - Shows [4h 3d Qh 5h 4d 10h 6s] (10,6,5,4,3)
Fish #1 - Mucks
C9H13NO3 Collects $15.65 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($16.40) | Rake ($0.75)
Seat 2: Reg Folded on the 3rd STREET
Seat 3: Fish #1 [Mucked] [Qc 3s As Ah Jh 2h 3h]

 

[WiZZiM]

fwiw, wizzim has a razz hand posted in HA, and I posted a stud hand.

Sorry, didn't realise this was here

 

[skoldpadda]

fwiw, wizzim has a razz hand posted in HA, and I posted a stud hand.

I'm going to post my ideas on my hand after work today and then I'll look at both of those and give my input.

 

[skoldpadda]

What's your plan here?

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1 Ante - 6 players -
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1.2 SB)
coenan: xx xx Q ♣____coenan folds
reerob: xx xx 3 ♥____reerob brings in for $1.50____reerob folds
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦____Lugnuts completes____Lugnuts calls
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦____Obelix50 raises
formmaker: xx xx 8 ♣____formmaker folds
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦___Hero calls

4th Street: (7.5 SB) (3 players)
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦ A ♠____Lugnuts folds
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥___Hero calls

There's a lot of info in this street. 1st, what would lugnuts complete with on 3rd and then fold 4th? Diamond draw seems less likely since 2 diamonds are dead on 3rd. 88x same reasoning. He sure doesn't have an ace in the hole or he wouldn't fold 4th. He could have a pair. It's doubtful he has low cards or he'd likely peel 4th.

Obelix can have Ax (3 betting 3rd) or possibly any decent wheel draw on 3rd, maybe with a diamond. Additionally, he may have any wired pair but since he raised 3rd after an 8 completed, I think he's more likely to have 88-KK than 77 or below. Although a flush draw is possible, I think it's much less likely as per above. When I hit an 8 on 4th, I think it's most likely Ax, 99-KK, or a good low draw.

This also tells me that my 7's are probably live and if I hit a 7 or 4 on 5th street, I will have a 2 way straight draw and a great chance of winning extra bets vs his open AA (i.e. great implied odds with a chance to win 4.5BB or more) and losing no more than 2.5 BB (calling 4th-6th). So I'm peeling here everytime, regardless of the sims. I really don't even need 40% equity here given these circumstances. Nonetheless, I have 38-39%.


5th Street: (4.75 BB) (2 players)
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥ 5 ♠____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥ 7 ♠

Now that I'm open ended, I'm an equity favorite vs his range. If I had bricked 5th, then I fold and just lose 0.5 BB. But now, I'm happy to jam it and hope I hit for the scoop.

 

[slycbnew]

Question on stats - what stats (if any) should I be paying attention to? I realize the game is much more situational than NLHE and even PLO, so...

I have 3K hands in at Stud Hi now - my VPIP is 21, 3rd Street raise 11, 2.88 BB/100, WTSD 22%, W$SD 59%. This is mostly at $.50/1 (super super super loose passive tables), 500 hands at 1/2 (mostly loose passive).

Since the sample size is small (and since I was totally clueless for the first 1K hands), I'm not expecting real feedback on these stats, but wondering if these are the stats I should be looking at, and if there are others.

 

[skoldpadda]

I think that there is a range of styles that work profitably. Some guys are loose (like 35-40 vpip) and able to let go of hands early and do quite well. Some are tighter (15-22) and do well. I'm out of town, so I can't check my stats, but I tend toward neutral in the tight-loose category.

 

[aesopdurasic]

Great thread going to b following and post hands also. I recently started to play stud. I got into it through 7 game mix. I kno i am not very good at forms of stud with the except of razz. I kno i will benefit from this thread so thanks for starting it!!!

 

[dj11]

Frank is a red pro. Why not raise 6th?

Full Tilt Poker $10/$20 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1.50 Ante - 3 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter


6th Street: (10.725 BB) (3 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥____Frank Thompson bets
huntinwobbit: xx xx Q ♠ K ♠ 4 ♦ 7 ♠____huntinwobbit folds
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠___Hero calls

7th Street: (12.725 BB) (2 players)
Frank Thompson: xx xx A ♥ J ♥ K ♥ 6 ♥ xx____Frank Thompson checks____Frank Thompson calls
Hero: A ♣ 6 ♣ 2 ♦ T ♣ 5 ♣ 3 ♠ 8 ♣___Hero bets

He doesn't raise here because it is obvious hero has lo, and assuming frank has his flush, the raise will only increase the RAKE, and actually decrease his share of the split pot.

 

[skoldpadda]

Great thread going to b following and post hands also. I recently started to play stud. I got into it through 7 game mix. I kno i am not very good at forms of stud with the except of razz. I kno i will benefit from this thread so thanks for starting it!!!

It would be great if you posted a hand in here that you might have a question about!

 

[skoldpadda]

He doesn't raise here because it is obvious hero has lo, and assuming frank has his flush, the raise will only increase the RAKE, and actually decrease his share of the split pot.

This would be a legitimate concern if the stakes were 2/4. At 10/20 the rake has already been maxed ($3) on 3rd street.

 

[slycbnew]

2 more posts, super basic questions:

[old link~tb]

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/50-1-fl-stud-full-ring-176295/

 

[dj11]

What's your plan here?

Full Tilt Poker $5/$10 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $1 Ante - 6 players -
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (1.2 SB)
coenan: xx xx Q ♣____coenan folds
reerob: xx xx 3 ♥____reerob brings in for $1.50____reerob folds
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦____Lugnuts completes____Lugnuts calls
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦____Obelix50 raises
formmaker: xx xx 8 ♣____formmaker folds
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦___Hero calls

4th Street: (7.5 SB) (3 players)
Lugnuts: xx xx 8 ♦ A ♠____Lugnuts folds
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥___Hero calls

5th Street: (4.75 BB) (2 players)
Obelix50: xx xx A ♦ A ♥ 5 ♠____Obelix50 bets
Hero: 5 ♣ 2 ♠ 6 ♦ 8 ♥ 7 ♠

As hero I will only call here, yes I know it screams raise, but I want one more card before I let loose. From my pov, at this point in the hand, this is another case of split pot/ why pay rake. One more card will tell a lot about this hand. As things sit here, I am probably prepared to go to showdown with what I have now, but that could change as this is an 8 lo hand, and they are beginning to scare me some. However, in this case the draw to a st8 is compelling reason for me to come along, especially if I get a 9 which will make me look fishy and less likely to have a low as well.

But according to you rake caps on the flop? (3rd street) Odd how I watch the rake stack grow during hands. But I play lower stakes and HAVE NOT READ THE FINE PRINT. You're gonna make me have to do that.

 

[slycbnew]

This baffled me. The Q and the J are obv playing for Hi, and my AA are prob good for high on 4th, but the way they're betting and the low showing make me think I'm going to have to put too much money in to see the river to end up likely chopping - so I folded. Weak? Should I see what happens on 5th? Should I plan on taking it to the river?

poker stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $0.05 Ante - 7 players - View hand 698066
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.7 SB)
Hero: A :diamond: A :heart: 3 :club:___Hero brings in for $0.25___Hero calls___Hero calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5 :spade:____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3 :diamond:____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx J :spade:____Seat 4 completes____Seat 4 3-bets
Seat 5: xx xx Q :diamond:____Seat 5 raises____Seat 5 calls
Seat 6: xx xx 4 :diamond:____Seat 6 folds
Seat 8: xx xx K :heart:____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (12.7 SB) (4 players)
Hero: A :diamond: A :heart: 3 :club: T :spade:___Hero calls___Hero folds
Seat 2: xx xx 5 :spade: 4 :club:____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls
Seat 4: xx xx J :spade: 7 :diamond:____Seat 4 raises____Seat 4 caps!
Seat 5: xx xx Q :diamond: 6 :diamond:____Seat 5 bets____Seat 5 3-bets____Seat 5 calls

 

[dj11]

Regarding the Frank hand, the only mistake I can see is if Frank decided early he was gonna bluff this hand and has air, and hero refuses to budge.

The check on 7th may be an inducement to get hero to bet so Frank can re-raise with a strong low flush, otherwise he miffed this hand completely. IMO

------------
Still playing lower stakes as mentioned and I find that the solid players are usually fairly easy reads. They bluff less than the fish, and certainly chase less than the fish. They also know how to back out of a hand gracefully. They mostly show that they have watched a player long enough so they know the fish from the sharks.

How wrong headed is this read?

 

[skoldpadda]

As hero I will only call here, yes I know it screams raise, but I want one more card before I let loose. From my pov, at this point in the hand, this is another case of split pot/ why pay rake. One more card will tell a lot about this hand. As things sit here, I am probably prepared to go to showdown with what I have now, but that could change as this is an 8 lo hand, and they are beginning to scare me some. However, in this case the draw to a st8 is compelling reason for me to come along, especially if I get a 9 which will make me look fishy and less likely to have a low as well.

But according to you rake caps on the flop? (3rd street) Odd how I watch the rake stack grow during hands. But I play lower stakes and HAVE NOT READ THE FINE PRINT. You're gonna make me have to do that.

There are enough bets that raising vs calling does not increase rake. It's already capped at $3. This is not an issue. It's 5/10. On this street 2 bets caps the rake. the other hand was 10/20. Look at the equities for the villain's range in the sim. The best play in a cash game is to raise imo.

 

[skoldpadda]

This baffled me. The Q and the J are obv playing for Hi, and my AA are prob good for high on 4th, but the way they're betting and the low showing make me think I'm going to have to put too much money in to see the river to end up likely chopping - so I folded. Weak? Should I see what happens on 5th? Should I plan on taking it to the river?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 Limit Stud Hi/Lo $0.05 Ante - 7 players - View hand 698066
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

3rd Street: (0.7 SB)
Hero: A ♦ A ♥ 3 ♣___Hero brings in for $0.25___Hero calls___Hero calls
Seat 2: xx xx 5 ♠____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls
Seat 3: xx xx 3 ♦____Seat 3 folds
Seat 4: xx xx J ♠____Seat 4 completes____Seat 4 3-bets
Seat 5: xx xx Q ♦____Seat 5 raises____Seat 5 calls
Seat 6: xx xx 4 ♦____Seat 6 folds
Seat 8: xx xx K ♥____Seat 8 folds

4th Street: (12.7 SB) (4 players)
Hero: A ♦ A ♥ 3 ♣ T ♠___Hero calls___Hero folds
Seat 2: xx xx 5 ♠ 4 ♣____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls____Seat 2 calls
Seat 4: xx xx J ♠ 7 ♦____Seat 4 raises____Seat 4 caps!
Seat 5: xx xx Q ♦ 6 ♦____Seat 5 bets____Seat 5 3-bets____Seat 5 calls

Depends a lot on how they play. Seat 5 likely has a flush draw and seat 4 may have 2 pair. I'd probably see if I improved on 5th before folding. Your hand is under-repped and has great equity vs QQ or J's up. Even if seat 5 is drawing to a flush, 3 diamonds are dead.

Rarely they might have trips and you hate life, but I'd see 5th.

 

[Makwa]

Question on stats - what stats (if any) should I be paying attention to? I realize the game is much more situational than NLHE and even PLO, so...

I have 3K hands in at Stud Hi now - my VPIP is 21, 3rd Street raise 11, 2.88 BB/100, WTSD 22%, W$SD 59%. This is mostly at $.50/1 (super super super loose passive tables), 500 hands at 1/2 (mostly loose passive).

Since the sample size is small (and since I was totally clueless for the first 1K hands), I'm not expecting real feedback on these stats, but wondering if these are the stats I should be looking at, and if there are others.

I dont have any stud stats, is the PT version really worth it? Most of my info comes from notes on regs etc. at .50-1 to 3-6.

2-4 and up gets more loose agro IMHO...

Anyway, looks like u r TAG, could be raising more to isolate, but hard to say, many hands play well drawing multiway...

Soo.. I dont really know what optimal stud stats look like. Off the top, I would nit up a bit more at the loosey goose tables to under 20 VPIP, do more PFRaising... but yr winrate is good so who is to say??

Yr WTSD is lo, suggesting you are not chasing much. Congratulations!!!

 

[skoldpadda]

PT Stud is a must for any serious stud player.