Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
guess im too used to the play i face in my games. If you can't put em on a 7 ever, then I think your play was pretty standard, apart from the underbet on turn.

Yah - do you play live? It's definitely very different, and I find that sometimes I struggle to put people on ranges. But I'd been paying enough attention to these guys to be pretty confident I was ahead.

I'm so mad I bet the turn so small lol. :rolleyes:
 
P

paymefoolsfool

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Total posts
76
Chips
0
try shoving when you have the nuts if your sitting down with $200 dont value bet it if you can and see what that does to your profit
 
P

paymefoolsfool

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2012
Total posts
76
Chips
0
and when you have AA try to get it all in preflop every time
 
Ducky7

Ducky7

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Total posts
4,129
Awards
3
Chips
6
dno why i havent subbed yet but i have now, wil read it all tommorow or when i get chance :)
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
lol scourge, learn from this guy

not getting AA in everytime you have it is bad obv

Lol. Believe me, I shovel as much in pre with AA as I can possibly get away with.
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

Bar Master
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Total posts
7,139
Awards
3
Chips
21
in the KK Hand....what hands are you v betting?

8x, 99/1010 ( sometimes) ???? I don't see much else that's calling a river bet

When villian's range consists of ton's of gutshots, 76, 78, 75,& missed draws, i'm struggling to find a vb 3 way here


edit: it's late and i'm tired, but I don't see anything we can make fold either.
 
Logan2

Logan2

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
4,054
Chips
0
In.

Read it all and most say that usually find live threads kind of borring but so far been really interesting man. Sorry to read that you won´t be able to grind live for some time. I understand now why you ask about Carbon/merge. I guess if you don´t have other choice than build a roll there vs not play at all should give it a try and see by yourself how games are. GL on w/e you decide.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
in the KK Hand....what hands are you v betting?

8x, 99/1010 ( sometimes) ???? I don't see much else that's calling a river bet

When villian's range consists of ton's of gutshots, 76, 78, 75,& missed draws, i'm struggling to find a vb 3 way here


edit: it's late and i'm tired, but I don't see anything we can make fold either.

It could have been that my read was wrong, but I just didn't see 7x here. Could have been a bit optimistic but I still think a value bet was right against these opponents. I'll give the results of this hand later today if I remember.

In.

Read it all and most say that usually find live threads kind of borring but so far been really interesting man. Sorry to read that you won´t be able to grind live for some time. I understand now why you ask about Carbon/merge. I guess if you don´t have other choice than build a roll there vs not play at all should give it a try and see by yourself how games are. GL on w/e you decide.

Heh thanks Logan. I've actually played on Merge before - I was just curious, about the relative difficulty of the games since everyone has been flying through in the Microcrushers thread, and tbh I struggled a lot getting out the door at 4nl on Merge, and then hit such a big downswing at 10nl that it was sort of hard to tell how I was really doing.

And yeah it's gonna suck not really being able to play, but I should be making one trip to Foxwoods to play a live tourney, maybe 2, and I'll be doing a fair amount of study I hope. It's less than 4 weeks long (starting tomorrow, get back to school on the 14th of January), but I'm probably going to do updates relating to whatever I'm studying, or maybe mental game concepts, as a refresher for me.

Thanks for reading, guys :)
 
Logan2

Logan2

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Total posts
4,054
Chips
0
Heh thanks Logan. I've actually played on Merge before - I was just curious, about the relative difficulty of the games since everyone has been flying through in the Microcrushers thread, and tbh I struggled a lot getting out the door at 4nl on Merge, and then hit such a big downswing at 10nl that it was sort of hard to tell how I was really doing.
Oh, that´s not because Stars is softer or Carbon tougher, that happens because most of us are all luckbox:) (excepth for Alfie he still can´t get out of 2nl, but remember he was a Choopy student so we can´t expect more if even choopy is on 2nl now.)
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Oh, that´s not because Stars is softer or Carbon tougher, that happens because most of us are all luckbox:) (excepth for Alfie he still can´t get out of 2nl, but remember he was a Choopy student so we can´t expect more if even choopy is on 2nl now.)

Lolololol. I wish I had more time to grind online. But now I don't even really have the ability to, so meh.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Okay so on that KK hand from a few days ago, the BB folded, and UTG tanked for a long, LONG time. He was thinking about it for like 3 minutes, and then he looked at me (I saw him out of my peripheral vision), and he flips over one of his cards. I had been trying not to look at him at all, etc, look as bluffy as possible, stock-still. I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt at this point that I had the best hand. He would never ever take this long to call with 7x or better.

When he flipped over one of his cards, I didn't look at first - I wasn't sure if I wanted to look (since he wanted me to). After waiting a second and with me still not looking, UTG actually waved (yes, WAVED) his card in my direction, trying to get me to look at it.

I looked. It was an 8.

"This beats AK, you know" he said. He had a bit of a russian accent, so it sounded really epic (think Rounders-esque) when he said that. I looked back at the community cards.

Apparently he thought I hadn't heard him so he said louder "this BEATS ace king!" I looked back at him, and made the mistake of asking "does it?" Then I looked back at the community cards, gulped hard, and grinded my back teeth a little, praying I looked weak.

He tanked for another 2+ minutes. Time sort of lost meaning for me frankly. I lost the feeling in my arms, which were resting on the table, one hand protecting my cards. After what felt like an eternity, he looked at his cards one last time, and tossed them into the muck. He said he had A8. I didn't say anything, didn't show either of my cards, and just collected the pot.

I was asked a question about what I was holding and didn't trust myself to answer at all, so I didn't say anything. For the next 3 or 4 hands, people were talking about me. It was a pretty strange experience. But it felt really good, in a way, and was quite helpful for getting some info on some of the players. Stuff like "he had to have had you beat" and "he obviously had an overpair" were thrown around, and were very helpful in identifying which players had more of a clue than I had realized.

The BB claimed to have also folded A8. I'm not sure if I believe both of them, but it would have made a lot of sense if they both had A8.

This was a session where my friends were there. They asked me about how UTG had showed one of his cards while the hand was still going, and whether that should have made the hand dead or not, etc. Obviously the hand isn't dead (you can play your hand face up if you really want...), but imo it is walking a fine line of angle-shooting. I'm curious what you all think about the "strategy" of flipping up one card to try to illicit a reaction from someone who is all in. Do you think it's in poor taste? Borderline angle-shooting but fine? Do you think it's even worth the info you give away by showing a card? Would you ever do it?
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
people have got suspensions for that in wsop
 
domeburglar

domeburglar

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Total posts
607
Chips
0
This was a session where my friends were there. They asked me about how UTG had showed one of his cards while the hand was still going, and whether that should have made the hand dead or not, etc. Obviously the hand isn't dead (you can play your hand face up if you really want...), but imo it is walking a fine line of angle-shooting. I'm curious what you all think about the "strategy" of flipping up one card to try to illicit a reaction from someone who is all in. Do you think it's in poor taste? Borderline angle-shooting but fine? Do you think it's even worth the info you give away by showing a card? Would you ever do it?

Personally i wouldnt's ever show my card(s) during the hand your giving them free info whether you fold or not.. and in certain casinos if you flip your hand over it is considered.. I wouldnt personally do it but i dont have a problem with others trying to do it.. it does not really affect me no matter what play im making.. and in this situation they are almost always feeding you info abut what they think you have or how theyll play a certain hand.. In this situation he HONESTLY had himself believing you had AK he just didnt have the guts to follow his own read.. but now you know to play any future similar hand like this in the same way and hell call you down with a pair thinking its a bluff.. and as for trying to SEEM weak i wouldnt recomend this one of the most common tells in live play ive come across is the opposite strategy where people act weak when strong and act strong when weak.. i think ur better off just giving no reaction
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
people have got suspensions for that in WSOP

It's obv different for tournaments - it would be a penalty in a tournament format.

Doing last-second packing for winter break. Really short trip for me - only about 3 hours, which is nice, though if my first plane is delayed I'll be sprinting to my second plane during my layover.
 
JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Total posts
4,681
Chips
0
You said you prayed to look weak. You know weak means strong,and strong looks weak right. It wouldn't hurt to read a book on tells. It's not a magic recipe to beat live games,but you would be surprised.
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

Bar Master
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 7, 2010
Total posts
7,139
Awards
3
Chips
21
You said you prayed to look weak. You know weak means strong,and strong looks weak right. It wouldn't hurt to read a book on tells. It's not a magic recipe to beat live games,but you would be surprised.

yeah I was thinking the same thing haha

Honestly, I had the same reaction when I was relatively new to playing live, like unsure what to say and such, but once you gain more experience, it kind of becomes second nature to just act calm and collected.

Good read though, btw on the hand
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
I don't believe this story, russians don't fold pairs postflop
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
You said you prayed to look weak. You know weak means strong,and strong looks weak right. It wouldn't hurt to read a book on tells. It's not a magic recipe to beat live games,but you would be surprised.

Isn't that just a whole leveling thing? People who don't know about tells at all will assume that if you look weak you are. But if they know about tells they might think strong = weak, etc. But if they think YOU know that, then... etc, etc. Prob overthinking this, but yeah I think in the long run just acting the same as much as possible is best.

yeah I was thinking the same thing haha

Honestly, I had the same reaction when I was relatively new to playing live, like unsure what to say and such, but once you gain more experience, it kind of becomes second nature to just act calm and collected.

Good read though, btw on the hand

Yeah, it def still gets to me sometimes, but it's really just in big pots/moments now. Heart rate goes up, and the like, but thankfully I don't really shake or anything. :D And thanks, hehe. I prefer writing narrative-styled hands, but it's obv not as useful for analysis/improvement.


I don't believe this story, russians don't fold pairs postflop

Appaz some do? Maybe he was only half-russian. :D

Have another hand for you guys. It was almost midnight on a Tuesday, and my table was 5-handed. I'd been losing, and rebought, and lost more and wasn't going to put more on the table for the night. My effective stack size (with the whole table) was about $110.

Nitty (postflop) reg limps in for $2 and it's folded to me on the BTN. I have K6cc. I decide to pop it to $12, and the blinds both fold. I'd seen this reg limp AK before, but also I'd seen him raise suited connectors (at a full table). He was decently nitty postflop, and I found that while he seems to float decently wide, I could double barrel him on good board textures where his range wasn't doing well (like K33r 6r).

(Pot: $27)
Flop: Ks7s6d
He leads out for $15. This is pretty weird for him, and indicates some strength. At the time I put him mostly on strongish Kx like KQs or something. He'd never lead out with a flush draw here, I don't think. But anyway, that's where my analysis at the time ended. In retrospect I was a bit tilty from running a little bad, and I made probably the worst play I possibly could have here. I shoved, and not only that, I mis-counted my remaining stack. I had about $90 in front of me, so it was a raise of about $75.

So here's my analysis now: When he leads out, he is strong. Strong Kx is the bottom of his range, and I think b/c of the flush draw, he'd lead out with sets, 2 pairs, AK, KQ , KJ, and maybe KT. I'm not sure what the optimal line is. I think stationing might actually be the best, or possibly raise/fold. But not really sure what he does with AK facing a raise here - it's possible he just ships it in, so I'm not sure what I like best. The problem with stationing is that if he bets on a blank turn, AND bets on a blank river, it's hard to think my hand is good.

Thoughts?
 
JOEBOB69

JOEBOB69

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Total posts
4,681
Chips
0
First i would just fold pre,K6 just isn't going to play well post flop. As played raise to $35 then ship turn.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
First i would just fold pre,K6 just isn't going to play well post flop. As played raise to $35 then ship turn.

And if he 3bet ships the flop?

His range gets so strong if he 3bets the flop, just not sure how narrow.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Also, I'm not so sure isoing with K6s on the BTN 5-handed to someone I can steal from postflop is a leak.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Isoing a limper from the button with any Kx hand is standard imo. I love raising his flop bet but I'd prefer something really small (~$40) that at least gives him the illusion of FE over the shove.
 
Organize a Home Poker Game
Top