Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah that's a good idea as well. Spot on.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Yeah considered making it like $100 and then auto-stacking any flops, just wasn't sure, so I went for the bigger reraise.
In the end, woulda been kinda sick if I only made it $90. I think the button would have folded, and BB woulda rolled his eyes and called. As it was he tank-folded. He claimed that he folded KQs (was a bit surprised he'd 3bet it there, so not sure whether to even believe that). And he was thinking a LONG time. Hard to know what would have happened if I only 2xed his 3bet, but you're right, doubt he's ever folding.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Some Results-Oriented Updates (I'll try to keep these minimized)
Total Sessions: 10
Total Profit: $416
Hours: 88:15
Average/Hour: $4.71
Approximate # of hands: 2,700
Approximate win-rate: 7.7 bb/100
Obviously these can fluctuate pretty quickly, but I've made enormous adjustments to my play in the last 2 sessions, and saw almost immediate results. I obviously can't completely distinguish this from how good or bad I'm running, but I know my play is having a big effect. Looking forward to future sessions.
Total Sessions: 10
Total Profit: $416
Hours: 88:15
Average/Hour: $4.71
Approximate # of hands: 2,700
Approximate win-rate: 7.7 bb/100
Obviously these can fluctuate pretty quickly, but I've made enormous adjustments to my play in the last 2 sessions, and saw almost immediate results. I obviously can't completely distinguish this from how good or bad I'm running, but I know my play is having a big effect. Looking forward to future sessions.
L
lukyl
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Nice thread =] So jealous that you can play 1/2, the smallest games i can get in my area are 2,5 at the casino, and 5/5 at ANY half decent pub game or local poker league.
Although playing these limits does yield great profit =P I turned 18 last year and started playing poker about midway through this year, played couple nights a week (maybe 150-200hrs total) made about 5grand profit in ~3.5months. Was hell stoked at my progress, unfortunatly all got halted when i had to service and fix major problems with my car, leaving me crippled for BR, (not to mention the odd $400 Friday night at the clubs). But hopefully getting a good comeback now that im starting up again, (tomorrow night, excited to get back to the felt =D)
Anywho, regarding some posts about the tendencies of the fish, LIMPing is ridiculously prevalent, and as soon as i had picked up on this after my first real session, it became a huge stack booster for me while playing my game. It is extremely common to see ~6 limpers in the 9max games i play, on atleast 1 in every 3 hands or so.
It baffled me that no one was taking any notice or advantage of this, so I took it upon myself, and began making LP raises to ~$25 into the dead money pot of ~$30, with a very frequent success rate. I would do this as often as i could see fit, sometimes getting away with it in both HJ and BTN per orbit.
Not wanting to sound to obnoxious in this part but.. When i was looked up, and they would call, simple post-flop play of C-bets, and light 4bets to a raise on my c-bet, had a stupidly high success rate.
Eventually when you get those genuine hands and everything goes right, your padded stack takes down a lot of value.
Just my $0.02 on Live poker strategy for a comfortable 5hr+ session.
Although playing these limits does yield great profit =P I turned 18 last year and started playing poker about midway through this year, played couple nights a week (maybe 150-200hrs total) made about 5grand profit in ~3.5months. Was hell stoked at my progress, unfortunatly all got halted when i had to service and fix major problems with my car, leaving me crippled for BR, (not to mention the odd $400 Friday night at the clubs). But hopefully getting a good comeback now that im starting up again, (tomorrow night, excited to get back to the felt =D)
Anywho, regarding some posts about the tendencies of the fish, LIMPing is ridiculously prevalent, and as soon as i had picked up on this after my first real session, it became a huge stack booster for me while playing my game. It is extremely common to see ~6 limpers in the 9max games i play, on atleast 1 in every 3 hands or so.
It baffled me that no one was taking any notice or advantage of this, so I took it upon myself, and began making LP raises to ~$25 into the dead money pot of ~$30, with a very frequent success rate. I would do this as often as i could see fit, sometimes getting away with it in both HJ and BTN per orbit.
Not wanting to sound to obnoxious in this part but.. When i was looked up, and they would call, simple post-flop play of C-bets, and light 4bets to a raise on my c-bet, had a stupidly high success rate.
Eventually when you get those genuine hands and everything goes right, your padded stack takes down a lot of value.
Just my $0.02 on Live poker strategy for a comfortable 5hr+ session.
OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
ship the AA pre! people will call off wider (random broadways they think is good) and we stack their 5bet ranges anyway and no-ones good enough to 5bet light at that limit.
its live, people love getting all in pre because of poker on tv and other bullshit lol
free money there dude.
+ you do you ever take that line with JJ etc? balancing for balancings sake is obv retarded, but here when you 4bet small people snap put you on the top of your range in live games as opposed to online where 4bets are normally 2x the 3bet since they're so polarised.
and agree with duggs, kinda find it hard to agree with the guy that names the seats on the table as UTG +1 UTG +2 UTG +3 UTG +4 etc.. regardless of how many hands you've played -.-
live players are predominantly loose passive fish, they get aggro from time to time and you get the odd aggro fish same as online but in the majority they are all super passive..
right, off to 10 table.
its live, people love getting all in pre because of poker on tv and other bullshit lol
free money there dude.
+ you do you ever take that line with JJ etc? balancing for balancings sake is obv retarded, but here when you 4bet small people snap put you on the top of your range in live games as opposed to online where 4bets are normally 2x the 3bet since they're so polarised.
and agree with duggs, kinda find it hard to agree with the guy that names the seats on the table as UTG +1 UTG +2 UTG +3 UTG +4 etc.. regardless of how many hands you've played -.-
live players are predominantly loose passive fish, they get aggro from time to time and you get the odd aggro fish same as online but in the majority they are all super passive..
right, off to 10 table.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Thanks for your input!! It's seeming like as long as I keep a cool head at the table (infinitely easier live than online, lol
) and don't run like horse manure, I'll be able to start pulling some serious $$$ off these stakes.I hear you, but also: people absolutely hate raise-folding pre. But if there's ever a time they do it, it's to an all in raise.
JJ is kinda tricky. Against this player I wouldn't be trying to stack JJ+ pre. I had only seen him 3bet once, and it didn't get shown down. We'd been playing on the same table for 6+ hours, so tbh, I'd strongly consider folding JJ to his 3bet with the BTN behind me and likely never folding to just the 3bet and call.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
It's possible but you'd have to be playing A LOT.
200k hands at 30 hands/hour
is 6666 hours,
or 1332 5-hour sessions
or 190 5-hour sessions per year for the last 7 years.
Not saying it's not possible to have seen 200k hands in 7 years but unless you're playing for a living, I'm going to doubt it.
OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
yeah but if he 3bet calls JJ/AK and c/f flops you lose money imo instead of jamming.
he 3bet 5bets his nutted hands KK/QQ so we stack them regardless of the line we take, I just think he calls off wider.. when you 4bet small he might call and fold flop but I don't think its more +ev than jamming, if you don't stack JJ pre then fine, but what about AK? you don't 4bet that small since we don't need to balance you prob jam that too hoping for a dominated call/flip.
shoving > flatting > 4bet small > fold imo.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
You're probably right, but imo it's close-ish? Also I'm much more comfortable playing HU than 3way if a nasty flop comes down.
Fwiw he claimed he had KQs. And he tanked for a loooong time before folding to the all in raise.
Fwiw he claimed he had KQs. And he tanked for a loooong time before folding to the all in raise.
Deluxeliner
Rising Star
Silver Level
that hourly is atrocious no offense, but theres something to be said for live experience (but you aren't doing it for the money i hope)...it's probably nothing to do with your skill, it's just that the 1/2 games are generally unbeatable (in Los Angeles where I play at least)
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
You seem new here, so I'll try not to assume things you know and don't know:
1. Obviously the hourly is atrocious. But it's 3,000 hands tops - not indicative of a relevant win-rate at all, given the tiny sample size.
2. I do it because I love the game, and not needing to pay for a hobby that I really enjoy is awesome.
3. $1/$2 games are not even remotely unbeatable. The play I have seen so far is borderline worse than the lowest limits I have played online. Different, definitely, but just downright terrible.
4. Idk what kind of rake they are pulling off the tabe in LA, but you must be playing in a place with the worst rake ever, or not be as good as you think you are.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
For sure dude, but I don't have a car, so I'd need to either bring a friend who could drive me (I have a buddy that would honestly prob be down for it) or figure out some other way.
Why are you never on skype dude? So much easier to coordinate haha.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Supposed to be taking a few friends to the casino today cause one of them turned 21 on Thursday, but the fire alarm went off at 4am this morning so I slept through my alarm, and my friend's phone isn't working...
Basically a giant fail so far, but hopefully this will still be happening! Either way I'll be playing today for sure.
Basically a giant fail so far, but hopefully this will still be happening! Either way I'll be playing today for sure.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Well, finally got all coordinated and ended up going to the casino with two of my friends, one of whom just turned 21 this week. Ironically, Michael, the one who just turned 21 has actually played in tribal casinos before. He placed 3rd in a $100 tourney and basically spewed off a bit in cash games lol. The other friend, Mark, is 23, has been to the casino but never played.
We got there at about 3:30pm, so it was starting to get pretty bustling, but we didn't have to wait long for a table. Mark was decently nervous about sitting alone, so I just took the lower EV route (as a one time thing) and they managed to find us 3 seats at the same table. I was in seat 5, Michael was in seat 1, and Mark was in seat 9.
Early on it went stupidly well. It was basically just us leeching the money off the rest of the table. We were all running pretty good in terms of starting hands, and weren't really having spots where we had to bump heads. After the first 2.5 hours, Mike was up ~$150, Mark was up ~$150, and I was up ~$300.
After that it kinda went downhill. I raised KK in a straddled pot and got called by J7s, who flopped trip 7s, and the money went in. I then had a bit of a mis-step against my friend Mark where he min-raised the turn (warning bells went off but I convinced myself he had bluffs in his range) when I had top pair, and I rivered top+3rd pairs. He had top 2.
But one of the more interesting spots was this one, which came a bit earlier in the session:
UTG, MP2 limp in for $2. I'm on the button with KK and I raise to $12. The BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds. So we go 3way to the flop.
(Pot: $37)
Flop: 874r
BB and UTG both check. The only hands I'm at all worried about here are 87s and 65s. Both BB and UTG are playing (relatively) tight though, and neither would slowplay a hand like that here. I bet out for $25. They both call, which surprised me, as I didn't think they would both be connecting with the board enough to call. Looked a lot like 8x, T9, maybe gutshots (from UTG) like JT, or A6 or A5.
(Pot: $112)
Turn: 2r
BB and UTG both check again. That doesn't really surprise me this time. Since I still expect to be ahead of their range an enormous % of the time, I bet out. Disclaimer: I got into a bit of that "haze" that sometimes happens in big pots, and I COMPLETELY botched the sizing here. I made it $45 to play, and they both called. It's hard to narrow their ranges because I made it so cheap compared to the pot, but $45 still looks like a large bet, so in general I'd expect them to have 8x more frequently.
(Pot: $247)
River: 7r
BB and UTG both check again. At first this looks like a scare card for me, but I don't think it really is. The only 7x that was strong enough to continue for 2 streets would have been 87, and I mostly rule it out because I think it leads out or check-raises the flop close to 100% of the time. So I decided that I had the best hand almost all the time, and even with an incorrect assumption about how they each would play 87 there. But here's where my turn sizing killed me. I didn't really setup a good river shove here, although it wasn't too bad. BB started with a bit under $300 and UTG started with a bit over $300 in the hand. So BB has roughly $175 now and UTG has about $200. I think I'm missing a ton of value when I do this, but again, wasn't thinking straight and clearly about the pot size, etc. I shoved (had them both covered, barely).
In retrospect I really like a bet of like $100, since it still looks big but is way more likely to get crying calls from 8x. But again, I REALLY wish I had bet about $70 or $80 on the turn. If they both called $75, the pot would have been about $340, with an average of $150 behind. Then a river shove seems totally standard, but I guess no guarantee they even both call on the turn with the bigger sizing. Thoughts?
We got there at about 3:30pm, so it was starting to get pretty bustling, but we didn't have to wait long for a table. Mark was decently nervous about sitting alone, so I just took the lower EV route (as a one time thing) and they managed to find us 3 seats at the same table. I was in seat 5, Michael was in seat 1, and Mark was in seat 9.
Early on it went stupidly well. It was basically just us leeching the money off the rest of the table. We were all running pretty good in terms of starting hands, and weren't really having spots where we had to bump heads. After the first 2.5 hours, Mike was up ~$150, Mark was up ~$150, and I was up ~$300.
After that it kinda went downhill. I raised KK in a straddled pot and got called by J7s, who flopped trip 7s, and the money went in. I then had a bit of a mis-step against my friend Mark where he min-raised the turn (warning bells went off but I convinced myself he had bluffs in his range) when I had top pair, and I rivered top+3rd pairs. He had top 2.
But one of the more interesting spots was this one, which came a bit earlier in the session:
UTG, MP2 limp in for $2. I'm on the button with KK and I raise to $12. The BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds. So we go 3way to the flop.
(Pot: $37)
Flop: 874r
BB and UTG both check. The only hands I'm at all worried about here are 87s and 65s. Both BB and UTG are playing (relatively) tight though, and neither would slowplay a hand like that here. I bet out for $25. They both call, which surprised me, as I didn't think they would both be connecting with the board enough to call. Looked a lot like 8x, T9, maybe gutshots (from UTG) like JT, or A6 or A5.
(Pot: $112)
Turn: 2r
BB and UTG both check again. That doesn't really surprise me this time. Since I still expect to be ahead of their range an enormous % of the time, I bet out. Disclaimer: I got into a bit of that "haze" that sometimes happens in big pots, and I COMPLETELY botched the sizing here. I made it $45 to play, and they both called. It's hard to narrow their ranges because I made it so cheap compared to the pot, but $45 still looks like a large bet, so in general I'd expect them to have 8x more frequently.
(Pot: $247)
River: 7r
BB and UTG both check again. At first this looks like a scare card for me, but I don't think it really is. The only 7x that was strong enough to continue for 2 streets would have been 87, and I mostly rule it out because I think it leads out or check-raises the flop close to 100% of the time. So I decided that I had the best hand almost all the time, and even with an incorrect assumption about how they each would play 87 there. But here's where my turn sizing killed me. I didn't really setup a good river shove here, although it wasn't too bad. BB started with a bit under $300 and UTG started with a bit over $300 in the hand. So BB has roughly $175 now and UTG has about $200. I think I'm missing a ton of value when I do this, but again, wasn't thinking straight and clearly about the pot size, etc. I shoved (had them both covered, barely).
In retrospect I really like a bet of like $100, since it still looks big but is way more likely to get crying calls from 8x. But again, I REALLY wish I had bet about $70 or $80 on the turn. If they both called $75, the pot would have been about $340, with an average of $150 behind. Then a river shove seems totally standard, but I guess no guarantee they even both call on the turn with the bigger sizing. Thoughts?
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Unfortunately, unless I decide to play Tuesday night after my last final, I won't be able to grind live any more for a while...
A final tomorrow and Tuesday, and then winter break, and no casino super close by at home. Hoping to make a trip to Foxwoods with my dad over the winter break, but other than that no serious grinding. May try to build a roll on Carbon to pass the time. Otherwise it'll be a good studying time, and then getting back to the live grind in mid January.
A final tomorrow and Tuesday, and then winter break, and no casino super close by at home. Hoping to make a trip to Foxwoods with my dad over the winter break, but other than that no serious grinding. May try to build a roll on Carbon to pass the time. Otherwise it'll be a good studying time, and then getting back to the live grind in mid January.
L
lukyl
Enthusiast
Silver Level
check that river.. in a 3 way pot where they are check calling all the way, i would have put atleast 1 on an 8x and the other on a draw? but the thing is a draw with mid pair (7s, eg 6,7-5,7) just trumped you on the river. Due to your image in this particular hand you seem very likely to take another stab on the river here, and atleast 1 of these 2 guys knows this and is checking for what he assumes should be trapping you into pretty much what you did.
A value bet doesn't seem worth it imo. considering if you get raised where can you possibly be that your ahead? and your priced in i think to always call the extra $75 or $100 depending on who of the two may do this. And with the way the hand was played as i said, i think i see you behind too often.
So yeah, check it.. have em' show the nuts or raggy 8 / busted draw.
A value bet doesn't seem worth it imo. considering if you get raised where can you possibly be that your ahead? and your priced in i think to always call the extra $75 or $100 depending on who of the two may do this. And with the way the hand was played as i said, i think i see you behind too often.
So yeah, check it.. have em' show the nuts or raggy 8 / busted draw.
OMGITSOVER9K
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
scourge its a value bet, in before Deco says fold pre
$100 on river, sick if they shove but according to your read they don't ever have you beat here right?
more on turn, shove river seems more standard though
$100 on river, sick if they shove but according to your read they don't ever have you beat here right?
more on turn, shove river seems more standard though
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Um I'd agree with you except that I said they never have a 7 here. It just isn't in their ranges. Neither of them should even have a raising range on the river - if they do it's complete spew.
Yah like I said they just can't really show up with 7s, and definitely not straights. I think bigger turn bet + river shove is prob the most +EV, but as played on the turn a smaller riv bet def seems the way to go. And fwiw I'd be calling shoves. Way more likely they make some spewy raise (whether they think it's for value or as a bluff) with a hand I beat. Based on playing with them for the past 2+ hours, I think I had both of their ranges beat 100%.
Matt Vaughan
King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Oops, thought I mentioned possible overpairs to the board as well, but guess not. I think that facing the preflop raise, BB could actually have as high as JJ, though it's tough to know. With the limp pre, UTG could have 99 or TT.