Limit Holdem #1 Part 1

What do you do after BB bet


  • Total voters
    19
  • Poll closed .
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
I thought I'd post some situatins for Limit Holdem play since that is an area that doesn't get discussed much. Although everybody loves no-limit in reality limit is where most pros make there money. So lets go thru some Limit situations and see if we can all learn which is why most of us are here.

For these scenerios I will have the blinds at $1/$2 but assume they are what ever blind levels you usually play at or can play comfortably. Remember, theres are smallish stakes play and not 30/60 games where the play is very different.

Situation #1:

Its folded around to you on the button and you have Js10s, you raise hoping to steal the blinds and if not you have a playable hand. The small blind calls and the BB raises, you call and the SB calls. (Your call here is required getting 7 to 1 on your money)

The flop comes 9h 6s 2s

SB checks, BB bets.

What do you do fold, call or raise? You can post why here.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

Cardschat Elite
Joined
May 28, 2007
Total posts
2,974
oh I didn't realize the pf action.

I'd say call and try to draw out. They likely have a high pocket pair they're attempting to protect.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
I rarely play LHE, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Or a bucket full.

We can play it passively and just call, hoping to also draw in the SB for a sweetened pot. This ruins our implied odds a little since our line will be so see-through (check-call, check-call, raise when flush fills). Then again, implied odds don't really matter too much in LHE, do they...

It also doesn't really give us a chance to win unless we hit our flush, or if we hit one of our overcards - if in fact they are live.

We could also raise; it's unlikely that the BB hit this flop (unless he's holding a pocket pair, in which case he doesn't need to hit). Although he most probably won't fold the flop to a raise, he might drop his unimproved high cards on the turn if we lead again then...or we could check behind on the turn for a free draw.

Again, I really never play LHE. Interested in hearing some of the more experienced limit players' input. I'm sure there's gonna be some 'equity' terms thrown around here...all stuff I know very little about :)
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
I'm going to leave this up for awhile and I hope to get more responses.

I'll post parts 2 and 3 later.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
Wow, 33 people have viewed the thread but only 3 voted. What's up scared to give an opinion, lol.

This scenerio I am going to go thru (this and parts 2 and 3) is some fundamental limit strategy that shows some of the major mistakes players make playing limit. I would hope people here interested in improvbing their game would participate. If nobody is interested than I won't waste everyone's time.
 
arkadiy

arkadiy

Legend
Joined
May 28, 2007
Total posts
2,378
Raise: Only if he doesn't have to many chips to make you suffer a huge fall.
Call: See if you can hit the last spade without him going all-in, he's prob holding Ax or some type of pockets.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
Raise: Only if he doesn't have to many chips to make you suffer a huge fall.
Call: See if you can hit the last spade without him going all-in, he's prob holding Ax or some type of pockets.

Ummm, it's limit. Different strategies for Limit.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
It's close between calling and raising, and the decision depends on what we know about the SB. If SB is loose postflop, raising is better. I'll get to the "why" a little later.

Folding is so out of the question it hurts to even think about it. :p

Good idea for a thread.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
I would raise here(i dont play limit, but have read a few of FP's posts on limit):
1. To isolate the BB
2. To represent strength
3. Sweeten the pot because there is a good chance I'll hit my flush or my backdoor straight.
4.Try to define BB's hand
I'm not really worried about SB because of his check on the flop.

I'm probably totally or at least partially wrong in my reasoning but this is why this thread was started, to learn from and I'm up for this and I'm with FP that this is a good thread.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Total posts
1,238
You have 14 outs to improve your hand. 9 for the flush and 6 overs. You also have all sorts of cards that can increase your outs for the river. The Q and 8 will give you open ended and K or 7 can give you a gutshot. I think there are just to many cards here not to make the pot bigger early. Raise.

You want to build this pot early before the scare card comes. Once another spade comes or a straight is out there, you will have a harder time getting their money in the middle. Build the pot now and drag them along for the ride. You start reraising here and you may just buy the pot on the turn without hitting.
 
Last edited:
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Folding isn't really an option because of the odds we're getting, obviously.

In most cases, without a specific read on SB, we have to call here and hope SB tags along for the ride too, which he is far more likely to do if we call than if we raise. If we raise, best case scenario is that SB calls two bets cold and BB also calls, which is unlikely. Worst case is SB folding, BB raising an all of a sudden we're in a swollen HU pot with ~33% equity against villain's range.
 
Last edited:
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
Ok, time for the answer.

This kind of hand is not unusual in limit holdem and it shows the importance of position.

Anyway obviously you would not fold here the odds are to good. The question is do we just call or raise.

The best course of action here is to raise. There are several reasons to raise here and some of you touched on most of the reasons. But the main reason we raise here is to GET A FREE CARD. If we pay one extra small bet here we will most often save a big bet on the turn if we don't hit our hand. If we simply call then the big blind will fire out again costing us even more to chase the flush now with only one card to come. It also disguises our hand if the flush does hit since we raised before we could have had a flush. We want to take command of the hand here and not let the BB who is out of position control the hand.

We also want to put pressure on the SB. He will now be facing 2 bets with the possibility of another reraise after he acts. Although you can argue that we want the SB to stay if we hit our flush, do we want him there if we hit a 10 or jack? We are better off isolating the BB if possible although if the SB wants to call 2 bets cold that's ok too.

All of the other reasons for raising mentioned by posters are good reasons but the purpose of the raise is to be able to draw 2 cards to your flush for 1 small bet. Remember the bets double after the turn.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Eh, I don't profess to be an expert at limit and you're probably right, but I'd imagine that to an extent the 'free' card potential is offset by the times we get 3-bet, considering that BB's actions so far are indicative of a big hand.
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
I raise here since I have overs, a flush draw and a backdoor straight draw: I want to be part of this since the pot is already pretty big and unless the BB reraises and the SB folds, I get more action for my buck than if I just call.

Calling would also be an option, but with a vulnerable flush draw, we gotta isolate the BB (SB could have backdoor nut flush draw with an As) and at the small limits, people will pay the big bet to chase these down is a spade hits the turn.
 
Xandit

Xandit

Guest
Joined
Sep 14, 2005
Total posts
133
I agree that we need to raise, but as Dorkus said, getting 3-bet is brutal. But if we are 3-bet , the BB has defined his hand to a big pair or set. Depending on the SB action we would be getting 6-8 to 1 to call a big bet on the turn with the impleid odds that the BB will bet again on the river. I think we need to raise.
 
Live Dealer Holdem - Texas Holdem Poker Rules
Top