KK vs AA

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ph_il

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this is a hand i played at a casino [$100 NL holdem]. i believe i made the right play, but my friend disagrees. i want to know if i might the right move, where i went wrong, and how others would have played.

im in the BB with K/K [offsuit*] and everyone limps in. its on me to complete the blind and i raise $20 over the blinds [$24 to go]. the person in 5th position calls and the button reraises me $40 dollars over. this after the button limped in so im thinking 3 things: 1) he could have pocket Aces in the hole to beat me. 2) he might be holding pocket Js/Qs and thinks he has me beat or fears i have him beat. 3) he could be holding something like A/K and is hoping to out draw me. my read on him was since he limped in, then reraised after me was he was holding at most QQ and at the least A/K, so i push all in. player 5 folds and the button calls.

my KK vs his AA.

flop is [x] [x] [A], [8], [8]. ...as if A/A wasnt bad enough he had to hit a set, then run the full boat on me. talk about over kill.

now here is where our discussion begins. i believe i made the right move by pushing all in. the reason why i put all my chips at risk was this: i was holding K/K. the only hand i really had to fear was A/A. if he wasnt holding pocket A/A, but A/K then i risked the chance of him cathing that A on the flop if i just called. by going all in on what i believed was the best hand, i then made it hard for him to call if he was holding A/K on a pocket pair like Q/Q. btw, my all in was $200 for roughly a $130 pot, because i didnt want to risk him catching a card that could beat me. even though he couldve got a set with small pockets or hit 2 pair to beat me, then i wouldve known i was a big favorite to win the hand and his win was on luck.

my friends response is that i should've just called the 40 and backed off if i saw an ace hit the flop. he couldve been holding A/[x] and hitting that lone Ace is what wouldve killed me, so risking that much wasnt worth it because then im looking for a miracle king to hit and i only have 2 outs.

my response to that is: if he was holding A/[x] suited or not, it wouldve been a very hard call for him to what clearly was a very strong hand. he'll also have to hit that Ace [3 left] within 5 cards to beat my made hand. or get lucky and call with a/2 - a/3 - a/4 - a/5 and flop a low straight [very unlikely].

so...was my play the right move and how wouldve others played.

also, we were wondering: if we played a 100 hands (full table) and i was dealt KK and my friend was dealt A/[x] and i can only win if he doesnt hit an A. (i cant hit another king) who is in the favor to win more hands. i believe its KK because of my made hand vs a hand looking for 3 outs.

*poker humor*
 
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Rodney

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Wouldn't part of the way you *should* have played the hand have to do with how this particular player was playing his previous hands (and what type of player he seemed to be in general)?

It's a tough call to make "after the fact", but I think it partly depends on what kind of player you are as well.

Your friend may have just been a tighter player than you are.

I probably would have pushed in as well :)
 
lonemessiah

lonemessiah

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I persoanally think you played them right, ok this time you lost, but the majority of the time you would win playing like that. If you had called and that ace turned up, the other guy could have bluffed you using it, or if he didn't have it and you raised he would have folded, and you would win a lot less.

The only hand that is better than KK is AA, and how was you to expect him to have that? The other day i did the same thing on a freeroll tourney online, and proceeded to lose to A5 suited, due to a flush, finished 24th out of 1000 and wasn't bitter, because i had played right and only lost to a lucky call.
 
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Lavitz

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You did the right thing. You can usually predict a persons cards by his behavior but it can be hard to determine his cards before the flop. You cant fold KK after you've dedicated that much and although it is unlikely he would be bluffing, he could have big slick suited or QQ, JJ, any pocket pair, or even KK too.
 
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ph_il

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Rodney said:
Wouldn't part of the way you *should* have played the hand have to do with how this particular player was playing his previous hands (and what type of player he seemed to be in general)?

It's a tough call to make "after the fact", but I think it partly depends on what kind of player you are as well.

Your friend may have just been a tighter player than you are.

I probably would have pushed in as well :)
lol. actually im the tight player in the group. im the guy that most people are afraid to stay in a hand with if i bet preflop or raise over, since they know im holding a strong hand or i hit the flop very strong.

my friend is a bit on the loose side. he'll call down someone with 3rd high pair and risk a lot of his chips just to get the table thinking they can take him down if he's in a hand. then he'll switch up and play made/strong hands and take down big pots because so many people will be betting into him. he's willing to risk a few buy ins just to get more action later on..me? i cant afford to play so loose.

...eh funny story when we were at a table together. after about playing for 4 hours..i was UTG with K/3 off. so i raise 20 over the blinds [24 to go]. everybody folds to my friend, sean, who calls me. the rest fold. of course we check all the way and he flips over J/3 off. everyone at the table was like "OMG he called?" so i flip over my hand and exclaim "King high!" lol...King high won.
 
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RussGriffith

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You made the right move. If someone re-raises me pre-flop when I have Kings, I'll push all-in every time. It's really the ideal situation, but you were just unfortunate to run into the one hand that could beat you.
 
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Heshkak

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I likely would have pushed in too. odds of him holding AA over your KK isn't good.
 
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ballas

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of course u would play why would u fold pocket kings yeah
 
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gotsumteeth04

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basically pot committed u cant just call his bet, i would asume that an over the top meant QQ or JJ a lot of people would slowplay aces, but again it depends on the other player. very rarely are pocket kings against pocket aces so i would always make the same play as you.
 
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Benimaru

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I really can't blame you for that play. He has shown some weakness and didn't raise .. pocket kings is not a hand anyone can easily walk away from. And the odds of him having aces are pretty streched too. You just happened to get the hand at the wrong time.
 
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Thors1982

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shoving AA or KK is never a bad move...... like you said there was only one hand you had to worry about.


Sometimes you run into AA with KK though :-(
 
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sss2005

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If you lose to AA with KK, never have regrets. You felt like being aggressive with your pocket kings and I don't see anything wrong with that. He could just as easily been sitting with pocket deuces.
 
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adiroit

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i have had KK against AA many times..most of the time i lose the whole pot..but sometimes magically a king appears and i get maybe a $100 pot or something.

I'm really sorry for your loss though..you did NOT make the wrong move though..he just had better cards
 
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themyst

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You did nothing wrong. I made the same move in a 10-25 NL cash game with my KK. Had KK under the gun, made it 200 (8x the big blind!) to go, got reraised by the small blind to 600, in my head with good players at this table, why would anyone with aces reraise me in this situation when everyone folded around to him and the big blind? I immediately put him on queens, or even jacks... the situation would have been heads up, and he'd most likely make more by trapping me with his aces than he would by reraising me, where i'd potentially fold. After that thought process, I went and moved in for about 9200 only to ... yes face a pair of aces. I may have lost that hand, and my whole bankroll, but I did nothing wrong. I believed he held a hand lesser than mine, just turned out to be wrong. It happens. Now, what if he was holding AK? Then I have the best hand and it'd cost him his whole stack to peel a 3-outer to beat me. To the original poster, you did nothing wrong. AA vs KK .... simply happens, but hey, at least it didn't cost you over 9 grand like it did for me.

Also - your friend is right, yet wrong. You have two outs to improve your hand, but if your opponent was holding A/x he had 3 outs to MAKE his hand. If he's holding aces, then YOU have 2 outs to MAKE your hand.
 
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-GAVIN-

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The chances of catching a pocket pair is very slim, the chance of more than one person at a table catching a pair is even slimmer, but catching kings and the other person having aces is very rare. So i think you did the right move to make him pay to try and him improve his hand as it must have seemed like you were in the lead.
 
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ynggambler21

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This is a good topic i just played in a tourny had pocket k's i was in the small blind i just called and then bb checked so im like ok im in the lead the flop comes 464 all suites im still in the lead unless has someone to my right has a 4 but you know im still in the lead turn an 8 flops im still sitting good no big raises guy was slow playing an 84 off suit when he hit his trips on the flop and then a full boat on the turn so really it didnt matter what i had one out a K on the river so i was screwed i dont know why this guy was even playing a 48 in the begining the big blind was $100 and he was in middle position so it wasnt in bad position or in inposition at that people get lucky and thats what it is plain luck

in your situation i would have slow played taken what was inthe pot and been happy i wouldnt have raised all in i would have called he did make pot size raise after just calling he slow played the aces you have to recognize a slow play or think hes playing slow this is just me cuz i am a tight player i take what i can get when i can but if i am unsure i always play like theres a possibily that i can get beat thats why i play slow
 
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leetodie

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Well with that flop he could have had just 1 Ace, and he would still have u beaten.
I've lost many hands (KK) to Ax just because they kept calling, and the A turned or rivered. I just hate that.
 
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Thors1982

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KK vs AA is just plain rough

But the Ace came out you have to be very very careful
 
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ph_il

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yng: what kind of tournament is this where the blind is at $100? lol. its true that middle person shouldnt have been playing 4/8. thats just a stoopid play and he got really lucky. let him try that same hand again and again and see how lucky he gets. however, you also made the mistake by not reraising and kicking that person out. you were in perfect position (late) to raise it up and probably wouldve taken the pot right there and collect some blinds. thats what i would have done; its a tournament so i want to collect chips as easily as i can.

in my situation, i re-raised him because i believed he was trying to kick me out of the hand. my conservative and tight style of play is pretty known at the casino i go to, so off the bat he would have known that i have a strong hand if im raising it up. (most likely pockets) so if he put me on J/J or Q/Q then that shouldve been an easy fold for me. i pushed all in to emphasize the strength of my hand. im positive if he had any other hand, even A/K he wouldve folded and not risked that much money. i pushed to emphasize strengh and to make him have to decide what to do...its just he happend to have a stronger hand then i did.

BTW, i dont believe in slow playing any type of high pockets. even with A/A ill raise big. raising not only builds the pot but protects your hand. nothing worse then having a great hand and losing because you let someone catch with your slow play. i only slow play if i have the nuts, otherwise i play the waiting game and play my hand strong (unless i know/feel im beat).

oh...and learn to use periods. they do wonders.

lee: true. if he only had 1 A, i was beat on the flop. however, i dont think he or a lot of people wouldve called a $300 PFR with A/x. even A/K its too big of a risk (we had about an even stack). if i'm pushing that much, its very obvious i have very strong hand. and as i said before, my style of play is well known..so they know i wouldnt risk that much on an entire bluff.

thor: yes, its very rough..but it doesnt happen that often at all. and not even AA stands up all the time. ive lost nice pots when i had AA and got called with 77 and they hit a set. or worse, someone calling with KJ and they hit 2 pair....
 
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chin146099

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You made the correct call. The chances of you have KK with another player at the table holding AA is like one in 20000 hands. Depending on the other player style, you could have backed off and called the $40 and saw the flop. I would have led out with a small bet to see if he was going to raise or check raise...I then might have folded. Hard to lay down kings, but sometimes it must be done.
 
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TankDogg33

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right move

you can analze the situation all day. Ive read a few articles of people getting KK and reraising before the flop for a substansial amount of money, and each time the opposing player had AA. And each time the KK went all in and was busted as 4 to 1 dogg. When this happens, you fear one hand. AA. That is if you like to play percentages as you are favored pretty heavily against any hand besides rockets. However, if your KK is going up agaisnt AK suitied, theres only one king left in the deck, and there is a straight, flush, and possiblilty of hitting a straight too. Its truly a gamble either way, but when I see my KK, im not layin down.
 
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2LoCo4U

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I Would Have Played The Hand The Same Way....Even Though Texas Hold Em Is A Lot Of Strategy , It Is Still "gambling" So U Gotta Go For It Sometimes On Ur Gut Instinct
 
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