Is it always correct to push with the best of it?

Gallinho

Gallinho

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In cash games is it always right to push when you know you have the best hand? Like say in a 50c/1$ game you have AA and $90 and raise to $5 and get re-raised to say $20, you know you have the best hand at this point so would it be right to push or to call and see a flop and give yourself a chance to get away from the hand if you think your beat?
This was a really simple example but the reason i ask is that i was losing a lot of big pots by getting all the money in and getting outdrawn with a variety of hands, and people would say "you got your money in ahead, thats all you can do" but i started thinking that if i'd played the hand slower i could have got away from it if the board got scary
I know that theres so many situations but i'm just asking if it is always correct to get all your money in pre-flop/flop if your sure you have the best hand or should you wait to see what the turn and river brings before commiting all your chips
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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If it's a cash game, then if you get you money in when you have the odds to do so then yes you call. In your example you have the best had pf, thats a fact. Over most holding's were a 4/1 fav to win the hand. We get roughly even money if you and your opponent have equal stacks. If you think your opponent will call pf then put your chips in there. Calling to see a flop in the thought your gonna fold if he shows aggression is really weak. Cash games are all about the odds.

Lets say on the flop you have the nut flush and your opponent bets. You suspect he has a set, but you think you should call coz you don't want to get outdrawn. You are making a mistake b/c you are a big favourite to win this hand, but by calling instead of raising or pushing you are giving him a chance to o/d you. If you get your money all in and he calls and outdraws you, guess what you win! Yes I know it's a difficult to comprehend but every time you make that play in the long run you make a +EV play and win $ everytime you do it, even in this particular instance yo may have lost. Even if he pushes on the flop and you call, your still a decent fav to win. If on the other hand you bet weak on the flop, then you are giving your opponent the correct odds to call to hit his f/house. Everytime you give someone the correct odds to call you are making a -EV play. Your opponents makes money in the long run when you do this and you lose money, regardless of the outcome of this particular hand.

Tourny play is different sometimes it will occur where you have to fold the best hand. This will usually be when you are a short stack and the bubble is approaching. In these instances it may be +EV to fold the best hand in these situations.
 
nevadanick

nevadanick

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I think there is one caveat to Jagsti's advice. IF you are playing with 5% or less of your BR and do not mind reloading numerous times if you are outdrawn, then it works. Somewhere - in that distant future - you will win in the end - even if it takes 1k hands (or more).

The problem I've seen most commonly online (and even in casinos) is that the player has nearly all his BR in play. If you lose, you're out - just like in a tourney. Bet the farm - all of it - and you DO risk losing the farm. Bet one cow from the herd, keep the bull, and you can always play.

It's one of the reasons I prefer playing limit games. Those who play 'old school' poker, like to play based on cards you can see. You HAVE that option to fold at any street. Many good NL players are not really playing cards beyond what is in the hole. They are playing the math - the odds, percentages, values, etc and are willing to risk the all-ins based on nothing more than how often that hand will win, discounting variance.

I'm one of those who is not a particularly 'lucky' player, even with 'the best hand' going in. My game attitude suffers when I get AA cracked five time in a row and nearly every AK faces a rainbow rag board or all non-matching bricks that never fill to a str8. I've never kept exact records, but I would say I hit trips to a pocket pair once in 10-12 or more times - not the 1 in 8 they say are the correct odds.

That said - I think my answer would be - if you are using standard 'good' BR management principles, continue to push those rockets and 'best hands'. If you play with a higher BR percentage, slow down. You can't survive 4, 5 or 6 reloads.

But that's just me - an old school limit stud/draw poker lover.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Well the point is if you're playing with too much of your BR on the table, you're going to get burned. Either a bad beat sends you home, as the last poster said, or you are forced to make -ev plays to avoid losing your BR. Either way is just bad. Play within your BR and get your money in with the best of it. And also to the last poster, you set 1 in 8 just like the rest of us. If you had records that had ANY evidence to the contrary it may sound plausible. But there is no way for the human mind to estimate a ratio like that without keeping exact records, especially when we remember the misses proportionally more than the hits.
 
nevadanick

nevadanick

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And also to the last poster, you set 1 in 8 just like the rest of us. If you had records that had ANY evidence to the contrary it may sound plausible. But there is no way for the human mind to estimate a ratio like that without keeping exact records, especially when we remember the misses proportionally more than the hits.

I agree that exact records would help, and understand that 'statistically' a set will hit 1 in 8. Where the diff comes in is that (IMO) there just are players luckier than others. Stats are built on millions of hands examining that one hand against others. Stats do not take into account the number of times that 'I' am sitting in the seat that holds them.

Just my own personal assessment of my own play and experience.
 
B

bw07507

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I agree that exact records would help, and understand that 'statistically' a set will hit 1 in 8. Where the diff comes in is that (IMO) there just are players luckier than others. Stats are built on millions of hands examining that one hand against others. Stats do not take into account the number of times that 'I' am sitting in the seat that holds them.

Just my own personal assessment of my own play and experience.

just wanted to say lol
 
B

Bentheman87

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Yea I agree Nevada. The average player will flop a set about 1 out of 8 times, but some players like me will flop a set once every 15 hands and some will flop one once ever 5 hands
 
D

dumpy620_84

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with AA it's a simple call. You can even throw out all the odds. I mean why not call when you know you have the best starting hand. I mean if someone is raising you that much preflop that means he's playing the cards in your hand in that case you have the best hand. No one can control what will come on the flop regardless of what kind of hand you have.
 
CAPT. ZIGZAG

CAPT. ZIGZAG

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In cash games is it always right to push when you know you have the best hand? Like say in a 50c/1$ game you have AA and $90 and raise to $5 and get re-raised to say $20, you know you have the best hand at this point so would it be right to push or to call and see a flop and give yourself a chance to get away from the hand if you think your beat?
This was a really simple example but the reason i ask is that i was losing a lot of big pots by getting all the money in and getting outdrawn with a variety of hands, and people would say "you got your money in ahead, thats all you can do" but i started thinking that if i'd played the hand slower i could have got away from it if the board got scary
I know that theres so many situations but i'm just asking if it is always correct to get all your money in pre-flop/flop if your sure you have the best hand or should you wait to see what the turn and river brings before commiting all your chips

You know. It's not a general consensus among pro's that you should be aggressive to be successful.

Take Daniel Negreanu for instance. Pretty successful player. I think we all agree with that. He likes to see cheap flops. That's his game. Pokin and jokin. Then comes the gunshot.

There are many top players which use this approach.

To answer your question. It depends on the game/players/action at the time.

Final table, three players. Poke it baby. First hand, play it slow. It just depends.

The only hard and fast rule is that there are no hard and fast rules. Your intuition is as important as your cards. Prolly more so.

For me, every single turn of a card is a whole new game.

-
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Yea I agree Nevada. The average player will flop a set about 1 out of 8 times, but some players like me will flop a set once every 15 hands and some will flop one once ever 5 hands

No this is totally false. In the last x hands you may have set once every y times, but you are still 1 in 8 to hit each set, just like the rest of us.
 
CAPT. ZIGZAG

CAPT. ZIGZAG

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No this is totally false. In the last x hands you may have set once every y times, but you are still 1 in 8 to hit each set, just like the rest of us.

This is an important point.

While it may seem on the surface to be a good bet if you've missed the last 10. The odds start out the same each and every time.

Many a gamer has gone down due to a personal warping of the numbers.

Donks play the possibilities, pro's play the probabilities.

-
 
C

chipsdaily

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I do not think it is ever a good idea to always do a particualr thing in poker. That includes pushing all in preflop because you're sure you have the best hand. If you are sure you have the best hand your opponent may become aware to and not pay you off whatsoever. Not to mention if they do call you, you might get unlucky and be outdrawn. Only in this situation being outdrawn just cost you all of your chips bsecause you got em all in preflop. This is a donkey move if done with over-regularity. Too many players are not willing to play flops with people because they aren't confident enough with where they are at in the hand. The only way to get good at something is to practice, so take more hands to the flop. This is where the skill is at and when you get good at it that is when you will see a significant increase in your chip stack. You will learn to play a wider range of hands from a broader spectrum of postions and in turn get the most in return for your big hands. Mainly because you will be outplaying your opponents regularly with inferior hands and they will not know where you are at. Remember a big hand in poker is a complete waste if we cant extract value from it. Mix up your play and take your opponents to the flop. Master that and you will be the constant captain at your table!
 
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