how to defend the big blind vs limpers

[Haze of Spade]

how do you defend your blind when limped in to? i mean when you dont raise and check back to see a flop.
i used to be very passive in this spot and overfold cause i dont wanna play the hand anyway. but it just happens so often that i decided to fight back.
i bet every dry flop now with any 2 and every river pot sized.
im not sure if its ev+ but it feels like break even at least and i dont have to wait every street for fish to think if the hand ends at flop.
how do you deal with this?

 

[MemphisGrind]

how do you defend your blind when limped in to? i mean when you dont raise and check back to see a flop.
i used to be very passive in this spot and overfold cause i dont wanna play the hand anyway. but it just happens so often that i decided to fight back.
i bet every dry flop now with any 2 and every river pot sized.
im not sure if its ev+ but it feels like break even at least and i dont have to wait every street for fish to think if the hand ends at flop.
how do you deal with this?

Nothing in poker is played the same way every hand or in every spot. I play my hand differently based upon each set of factors I'm up against in each hand.

That being said. I don't play more aggressively or passive I just play the hand and the player. If they are limping into me I can usually rule out some hands from their range, and play the pot accordingly.

Your strategy could work over a short sample but played that way every time you will get picked off, its exploitable. -EV long term IMO Would love to discuss it more in detail and maybe we can nail down the specifics if I'm not fully understanding the entirety of the strategy.

 

[Johnson baker]

Nothing in poker is played the same way every hand or in every spot. I play my hand differently based upon each set of factors I'm up against in each hand.

That being said. I don't play more aggressively or passive I just play the hand and the player. If they are limping into me I can usually rule out some hands from their range, and play the pot accordingly.

Your strategy could work over a short sample but played that way every time you will get picked off, its exploitable. -EV long term IMO Would love to discuss it more in detail and maybe we can nail down the specifics if I'm not fully understanding the entirety of the strategy.

Agreed. Keeping players off balance is more important to me in the long run .

 

[63burner]

not the usual, to wake yourself up

how do you defend your blind when limped in to? i mean when you dont raise and check back to see a flop.
i used to be very passive in this spot and overfold cause i dont wanna play the hand anyway. but it just happens so often that i decided to fight back.
i bet every dry flop now with any 2 and every river pot sized.
im not sure if its ev+ but it feels like break even at least and i dont have to wait every street for fish to think if the hand ends at flop.
how do you deal with this?

If I'm falling into a pattern, I try to change. The amount of change is personal preference. If you're usually passive, try a little aggression, that you're comfortable with. Remember, the non-fishes at your table or website, a lot have played with you before, "this guy always folds/limps" If you change it up, you will wake yourself up as a player, trying something new makes you focus and concentrate a little more.

 

[xpvictor1]

The only thing consistent in poker is playing against the odds

how do you defend your blind when limped in to? i mean when you dont raise and check back to see a flop.
i used to be very passive in this spot and overfold cause i dont wanna play the hand anyway. but it just happens so often that i decided to fight back.
i bet every dry flop now with any 2 and every river pot sized.
im not sure if its ev+ but it feels like break even at least and i dont have to wait every street for fish to think if the hand ends at flop.
how do you deal with this?

The odds are against you, and that is why you cannot afford to play the way you described above. You would be the luckiest player ever if you won consistently against the odds while playing the same way each time. My real purpose in commenting is in response to your comment: "it feels like break even at least" .. I ask you a question: do you think breaking even is a positive thing? This is not an attitude a successful player should entertain ... choose to accept nothing less than winning.

 

[Haze of Spade]

thanks for the replies!
ok maybe i should describe my strategy more in detail:

i know it is exploitable but most limpers are passive fish who just wanna hit something and wont exploit anyone. but true it doesnt work that well with the more agressive and tricky ones.
so i bet every dry flop with air and every river if villain checks back flop and turn (vs 1-2 oponents). its just unlikely that he got something strong and he cant just always call a pot sized bet cause i also bet for value like that. only way that comes to my mind how that can be exploitet is that they know exactly that i have a hand when i bet turn or check on a dry flop.

 

[Haze of Spade]

The odds are against you, and that is why you cannot afford to play the way you described above. You would be the luckiest player ever if you won consistently against the odds while playing the same way each time. My real purpose in commenting is in response to your comment: "it feels like break even at least" .. I ask you a question: do you think breaking even is a positive thing? This is not an attitude a successful player should entertain ... choose to accept nothing less than winning.

i dont agree with that because i would lose my blind in this spot and beeing brake even would be better than losing. also some people try if they can limp and when they see agression they just stop it and i keep my blind more often.
i will try adjust to the donks and regs but it really works well with the passive fish.

 

[MemphisGrind]

thanks for the replies!
ok maybe i should describe my strategy more in detail:

i know it is exploitable but most limpers are passive fish who just wanna hit something and wont exploit anyone. but true it doesnt work that well with the more agressive and tricky ones.
so i bet every dry flop with air and every river if villain checks back flop and turn (vs 1-2 oponents). its just unlikely that he got something strong and he cant just always call a pot sized bet cause i also bet for value like that. only way that comes to my mind how that can be exploitet is that they know exactly that i have a hand when i bet turn or check on a dry flop.

I don't play against passive fish often.. I wish I could consistently find games with full tables of these players, but it just doesn't happen at the stakes I play. I understand what your strategy is and can see it working against certain opponents.

my rebuttal was how often are you up against said opponent, and how do you know that the other opponents such as players like myself have not seen this happen and purposely play this line to exploit you?

If you make it to the river to do the pot sized bet, I understand that you balance your range here and that is a good thing, but the facts are that you will have the goods a lot less than you will have it. So on that fact alone your expected value is negative in the long run.

I would 3 bet you most of the time on your flop bet. This is another reason why it's exploitable.

Again if you are playing in games with consistent passive fish that don't pay attention to player patterns then absolutely continue on with your strategy because I'm sure it will work, I'm just saying against any opponent paying even half a bit of attention to the game you will get picked off and lose long term.

You need to remember it's not the river bet that will be your downfall in this strategy as much as the bet on the flop. Even though a player like myself will flat call your bet with strong hands and draws and 3bet you with most air hands. If you balanced your flop bet you wouldn't run into this problem, the river pot bet is not horrible but you will get called off light.

 

[Haze of Spade]

I don't play against passive fish often.. I wish I could consistently find games with full tables of these players, but it just doesn't happen at the stakes I play. I understand what your strategy is and can see it working against certain opponents.

my rebuttal was how often are you up against said opponent, and how do you know that the other opponents such as players like myself have not seen this happen and purposely play this line to exploit you?

If you make it to the river to do the pot sized bet, I understand that you balance your range here and that is a good thing, but the facts are that you will have the goods a lot less than you will have it. So on that fact alone your expected value is negative in the long run.

I would 3 bet you most of the time on your flop bet. This is another reason why it's exploitable.

Again if you are playing in games with consistent passive fish that don't pay attention to player patterns then absolutely continue on with your strategy because I'm sure it will work, I'm just saying against any opponent paying even half a bit of attention to the game you will get picked off and lose long term.

You need to remember it's not the river bet that will be your downfall in this strategy as much as the bet on the flop. Even though a player like myself will flat call your bet with strong hands and draws and 3bet you with most air hands. If you balanced your flop bet you wouldn't run into this problem, the river pot bet is not horrible but you will get called off light.

i play at 888poker 10 nlhe. there are many fish but more agressive ones than at 5 nl. so the passives get more rare but there are still many compared to pokerstars where i used to play.
i just didnt get to the point yet where i felt exploited cause regs usually dont limp anyway. if a reg limps and i know he only limps to trap i even check the flop.
but at 888 there are really so many fish that i feel i lose to much to them if i dont attack them.
if villain doesnt fold much i even add some value hands on flop but like i said the player pool is very fishy and sometimes i just get limped into every single orbit.
i will check my database if i actually win or lose long term!

 

[krionika]

krionika

how do you defend your blind when limped in to? i mean when you dont raise and check back to see a flop.
i used to be very passive in this spot and overfold cause i dont wanna play the hand anyway. but it just happens so often that i decided to fight back.
i bet every dry flop now with any 2 and every river pot sized.
im not sure if its ev+ but it feels like break even at least and i dont have to wait every street for fish to think if the hand ends at flop.
how do you deal with this?[/QUOTE

Yes i am very passive in the blind too,i always check or fold

 

[PokerDragon99]

Raise 3x and thats it.

Whatever comes, you can play it.

 

[MemphisGrind]

i play at 888poker 10 nlhe. there are many fish but more agressive ones than at 5 nl. so the passives get more rare but there are still many compared to pokerstars where i used to play.
i just didnt get to the point yet where i felt exploited cause regs usually dont limp anyway. if a reg limps and i know he only limps to trap i even check the flop.
but at 888 there are really so many fish that i feel i lose to much to them if i dont attack them.
if villain doesnt fold much i even add some value hands on flop but like i said the player pool is very fishy and sometimes i just get limped into every single orbit.
i will check my database if i actually win or lose long term!

This was better well explained. I’m jealous your player pool is fishy. That’s awesome! glgl

 

[freestocks]

Defending your blinds is valid. However, I have lost on the bubble recklessly defending. So, my new tact is defending my position. Stealing blinds can work better than defending.

 

[duson]

I just simply go with the thought process that if the hand I have is something I would raise with in another position I should do it in the BB. It forces the limpers to consider that I have a dangerous hand and they aren't going to get a cheap flop.

 

[graplet]

for me it depends on my hand, if I have a strong hand, i will often just call, medium hand raise, week hand it depends on their stack

 

[TenJack]

Heres the deal. Playing small stakes like 1/2 live i made a living for a long time making it 5x out of the blinds without even looking at my 72o if it was limped around to me. Get a few callers then exploit the hell out of them on most flops. I actually made more in the SB/BB than i did in HJ, and CO combined using this strategy.

If your game is the type where people are just going to look at ther cards and click the check/fold button with less than top pair or a decent draw, this is a gold mine. If you try this, be careful to understand what flops are good and which ones are bad, though. 774 is a bad flop, J 7 3 rainbow is a dream.

Certainly if you use it enough, people are going to figure it out and start limping AA, KK etc and then letting you hang yourself, but the trick is to not get to greedy and occasionally show down a strong hand. (If you do it and flop trips, 2pair, etc. if you can try to show it. This way they will feel like they aren't simply getting robbed.) I would usually pack up and leave the first time somebody showed me something slowplayed.

 

[Haze of Spade]

Heres the deal. Playing small stakes like 1/2 live i made a living for a long time making it 5x out of the blinds without even looking at my 72o if it was limped around to me. Get a few callers then exploit the hell out of them on most flops. I actually made more in the SB/BB than i did in HJ, and CO combined using this strategy.

If your game is the type where people are just going to look at ther cards and click the check/fold button with less than top pair or a decent draw, this is a gold mine. If you try this, be careful to understand what flops are good and which ones are bad, though. 774 is a bad flop, J 7 3 rainbow is a dream.

Certainly if you use it enough, people are going to figure it out and start limping AA, KK etc and then letting you hang yourself, but the trick is to not get to greedy and occasionally show down a strong hand. (If you do it and flop trips, 2pair, etc. if you can try to show it. This way they will feel like they aren't simply getting robbed.) I would usually pack up and leave the first time somebody showed me something slowplayed.

good point, i will definitely try this!
i also raise 5x when i do but usually i raise very tight in this spot. but i think there are enough players in the pool who can be exploited like that.

 

[braveslice]

imo:
1. You don’t need to defend blinds if no-one is attacking, thus defending blinds in this case is not really the concept we are looking for, we are asking how we can exploit the limper OOP
2. Limpers in general are fish, you don’t – in general – bluff against fish
3. Against passive fish the basic concept is quite clear a) you raise your good hands and, in this case, good hand is quite wide range b) you bet for value and in this case, value is quite wide range c) You try to bluff the minimum, and you try to find the optimal pattern for that given individual properties of the fish d) And there is no case post flop that is hard given we know that we can always bet/fold.

 

[TenJack]

Certainly bluffing fish is a recipe for disaster sometimes, but we are working on the rule that they will only hit something around 1/3 time. If you apply enough pressure most of them will fold. (Is it skillful? No. I admit that.)

Obviously, don't try this versus a calling station. But a table with 4-5 loose-passive players who fold flops with nothing will make this profitable. At least for me.

Also keep in mind that this worked at 1/2 live, which has a different player pool than 01/02 online. And true to what Braveslice said, if it is limped around to you its not "defending."

 

[braveslice]

I do CB against fish 80%+ time if I decide to raise TenJack, but that is not really against the basic principle of not bluffing, imo because we have a exploitable plan in action that started on raising pre (generally 2 street plan).

Edit2: I miss understood the plan of opening post, so deleted part of my post.

 

[TenJack]

I think we are both on the same page Basically its just a big raise preflop followed by a c-bet.

 

[braveslice]

I think we are both on the same page Basically its just a big raise preflop followed by a c-bet.

As long as you raise pre for value we are in the same same page lol. Given your lag status I guess you might, at least time to time, have different priorities than tight passive like me. Two street exploitative line nevertheless.

 

[TenJack]

Yes the 2-street part is vital.

 

[Mikeisanace777]

depends on if it's cash or tourney

In a tourney it's stage dependent and if some reason you have 2 limpers all fold to you in the blind and it's late stages then the cards pretty much open op for you. If your short stacked and you have a7 or higher then a hug re-raise steal or gamble is a must here. If your know the players as weak tight then a call can be achieved with a board like A-3-9 you check they check then it's probably safe to say your good here and can ice it on the turn. early in the tournament the blinds are soft you can check/fold later if you don't hit the board hard.


Cash games are same/same all the time you dont need to defend the blinds if it's a 5-10 game 2 limpers who are decent and you hold 9-7 off just check see a flop don't commit much and fold unless you just flop a straight. I read a book once stating the blinds are negative expectation spots and the button is +. This means a lot in cash games so you give away 15 bucks per blind and are winning 50 from the button from luck and proper play just flow with it it's pretty consistent. You can even do this with ak offsuit just call check and the player will see your a soft blind and will bet out on K-9-7 boards this time however you can flat him or raise and you defend the blind with the best hand. This is a good thing because sometimes the limper has 9-10-J-J and will go overboard thinking your just defending your blind this time. The concept of defending the blind comes from tournament play it's rising it's a forced bet and pressure is put upon you so as it goes up you need to defend with k-4 clubs.