Hi guys,

I really have an issue in terms of folding hands. I'm okay folding 90% of the time but i find it really hard to fold when i know someone has rivered.

eg. this is an actual hand (bets not important here)

me Ad-8d
player Jh-10s

Comm cards

5d-8c-10d-8s-10h

all the way i have been betting and he calls until the river where he reraises me, at this point i know im beat but i am so annoyed i end up calling to my disgust.

What i cant understand is why i call in situations i know im beat, particularly when i know the river has won it for him part of me feels i have contributed to this pot and he just stole it at the end.

Does anyone have this problem? if so how do you become good at laydowns or better still acknowleding once you bet to the pot the money is no longer yours.

Originally Posted by tiltboy

eg. this is an actual hand (bets not important here)

Bets are VERY important if you want some real help!

Ok, lets say the betting went like this

Blinds $0.50/$1

Preflop

He Calls $1
I raise $4
SB folds
BB folds
He Calls $4

Flop (pot $9.50)
5d-8c-10d

He Checks
I bet $6
He calls $6

Turn (pot $21.50)
8s

He Checks
I bet $12
He calls $12

River ($45)
10h


He Bets $15
I call $15

Originally Posted by tiltboy

Hi guys,

I really have an issue in terms of folding hands. I'm okay folding 90% of the time but i find it really hard to fold when i know someone has rivered.

eg. this is an actual hand (bets not important here)

me Ad-8d
player Jh-10s

Comm cards

5d-8c-10d-8s-10h

all the way i have been betting and he calls until the river where he reraises me, at this point i know im beat but i am so annoyed i end up calling to my disgust.

What i cant understand is why i call in situations i know im beat, particularly when i know the river has won it for him part of me feels i have contributed to this pot and he just stole it at the end.

Does anyone have this problem? if so how do you become good at laydowns or better still acknowleding once you bet to the pot the money is no longer yours.

some might disagree with me but this mentality has worked for me.


I never believe in being pot committed unless I know the player I'm up against(reads I have on him/her). If you had any reads that told you this player was a CS(calling station) then you should have picked up on that and lowered your bets knowing that this player had hit the flop and was chasing, IMO it seems that you need to work on your reads, position and odds and based on yours and villians cards, if you had made a substantial raise preflop, then villian may have laid his/her cards down unless your playing micro-limits then it's hard to make most micro-limit players lay down any connected cards.


you have to work on you disipline, its hard work, but I have found the best way to work on it without losing a cent and possibly make some money is the freeroll way.

eg: you hold K-K, instead of betting big with it as you normally would, make a bet half the size you would, as you will find alot of players will call with anything in a freeroll( now keep in mind that this a freeroll and your here to work on your disipline) the flop comes down Q,9,3 rainbow this seems like a great flop for you, you bet and get two callers(doesn't matter what you bet here, a chaser will call, but you want to sweeten the pot a bit) you'll put out a nice sized bet and one player drops out and the other calls, turn card is a K (sweet, a set, but alas a possible straight)you make a probing bet to see if villian has hit his straight, and are reraised.....sorry but your beat here, a set is nice but don't get married to the set and let it go.


That was just an example, the only problem with my scenario is that it may get you intoo a habit of betting that is inappropriate in cash and tourney games but you have to remember that your working on your disipline.
If this is hard to understand maybe some one more advanced at disipline can teach you a better method.
This is the method I have been using and it has been working for me and as someone has said "to each his own"(I think that is right).


seems we posted at same time so disregard above comment concerning betting preflop as I see that this villian seems to be married to connectors.

Thanks for you input, its something for me to consider because i really need to work on this.

In your example, i would call because i feel the only hand that could beat me is the straight but if i had bet big pre flop and flop it annoys me to think that the guy could have called those bets and get rewarded.

Theres a psychological aspect i'm also having problems with in terms of neglecting rational reasoning for emotional feelings in this situation.

If I was him - I would think I hit top pair with okay kicker and you bet into him. A lot of people play runners so he wants to see the flop. He flops top pair so of course he's going to call your bet. He's probably putting you on top pair also and thinking it's going to come down to kicker.

When the 8 came, he is trying to decide if you raised with MP or if you have an overpair. With top pair I'd probably call and see what happens on river. Hard to lay down top pair - harder for some people. Then the 10 hits and he knows he has the best hand.

I'm thinking you raised with MP and sucked out on turn. Then he just sucked you back out on the river.

Not a bad play for you - but hard to fault the other guy too.

Tiltboy, discipline is something you have to learn, it can't be taught. I perfectly understand what your problem is because at times it happens to me too, and its a pretty common problem. It particularly occurs when your opponent hits the miracle card, a 2 outer like in your ex. in OP, and you've invested alot in the pot.

Eventually you'll work it out, as long as you try very hard to do so. There is a quote from Phil Gordon (from poker the real deal), I say it to myself before every session, it goes "Laying down a once-powerful hand in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's become second-best is a sign of a good poker player". Sounds like something you give for granted, yet it isn't. Look at your hand, the evidence was there but you called. Why? There are 2 reasons why this happens. The most common one is because you put alot in a pot already, other times just out of pure frustration. Think alot about it though, not being able to do this means you're not a good poker player (and its certainly true). Keep repeating that to yourself.

I've cut down alot on this now, eventually you will learn too, it takes time. It'll come, if you really care about improving your game.

[quote=FinalTable;543894]

I'm thinking you raised with MP and sucked out on turn. Then he just sucked you back out on the river.
[quote]

This is EXACTLY how I felt - I felt I sucked out but then had it taken right back from me on the river and just didn’t want to fold I was not so much mad at his play but the cards.

I sometimes worry about being wrong and finding out I should have called. Curiosity is not good.

I am new to poker so I hope that in time experience will enable me to adopt a mindset to separate myself from the pot I have contributed to.

Originally Posted by joeeagles

Tiltboy, discipline is something you have to learn, it can't be taught. I perfectly understand what your problem is because at times it happens to me too, and its a pretty common problem. It particularly occurs when your opponent hits the miracle card, a 2 outer like in your ex. in OP, and you've invested alot in the pot.

Eventually you'll work it out, as long as you try very hard to do so. There is a quote from Phil Gordon (from poker the real deal), I say it to myself before every session, it goes "Laying down a once-powerful hand in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's become second-best is a sign of a good poker player". Sounds like something you give for granted, yet it isn't. Look at your hand, the evidence was there but you called. Why? There are 2 reasons why this happens. The most common one is because you put alot in a pot already, other times just out of pure frustration. Think alot about it though, not being able to do this means you're not a good poker player (and its certainly true). Keep repeating that to yourself.

I've cut down alot on this now, eventually you will learn too, it takes time. It'll come, if you really care about improving your game.

Its good to hear that, I need something to justify being able to fold at times. I need to improve this aspect of my play and ensure I engage my brain and listen rather than acting out of emotion. I sometimes have the "oh well I've bet $20, whats another $5" even when I am certain the way the hand has been played pre flop to the river has me beat.
This only happens with marginal hands though, I don’t call when there's a one card flush and I have top pair. I need to fine tune this a bit more.

I'll ignore the actual hand and just make a general comment.

If you truly know you're beat, there's only one reason that you're calling. you want to be proved 'right', you want him to show that he rivered you so that everyone can see that that nasty little rascal outdrew you and so that you can see that you must be a great poker player because you were 'right' about him rivering you.

Eliminate this from your mind. A truly good poker player does not need to be shown he is 'right' - he will just simply fold and move on if he is confident enough that he is beaten. Ego has no place in poker, nor does thinking in terms of 'right' and 'wrong'.

If you believe this may be an issue, I ramble on some more about relevant issues https://www.cardschat.com/f49/poker-ego-getting-what-you-deserve-77829/.

easy to say when you're the one with the irresistable brit accent.

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

I'll ignore the actual hand and just make a general comment.

If you truly know you're beat, there's only one reason that you're calling. you want to be proved 'right', you want him to show that he rivered you so that everyone can see that that nasty little rascal outdrew you and so that you can see that you must be a great poker player because you were 'right' about him rivering you.

Eliminate this from your mind. A truly good poker player does not need to be shown he is 'right' - he will just simply fold and move on if he is confident enough that he is beaten. Ego has no place in poker, nor does thinking in terms of 'right' and 'wrong'.

If you believe this may be an issue, I ramble on some more about relevant issues https://www.cardschat.com/f49/poker-ego-getting-what-you-deserve-77829/.

Thanks for that - kinda what i wa looking for

+ This only seems to occur online when i play live games i am very comfortable with folding if i think im beat regardless of what happens in a hand.

Online - sometimes I'll call a relative small bet even though I know I'm beat.

What's reasonable? If I'm at say the .10/.25NL tables, and someone rivers me after calling all the way - and say there is $5.00 in the pot, and he bets 0.75-1.50 - I'll call just to make him show. I may only do this once at a table especially if I've never played this person for.

Why would I call when I know I'm beat? I've caught a LOT of people putting a post oak bluff on the river online. I want them to know that if they bet on the river - they better have it cuz I'll make them show. I did this twice last night and won $10 because twice two diff people (at a 4 handed table) called my TP all the way to river and looked like a flush came out. One bet - one reraised...but it was relatively a small bet so I called and neither had it. Then again, same circumstances (I think I had 2 pair vs a 10-K on the board). The K came on river and he bet $3.00. I called and he was bluffing. After that, I started getting hands checked to me on river. If they bet on river after that and I didn't have a great hand, I could be sure I was beat. I ended up leaving the table tripled up.

I was willing to go down a few BB to let the others know I'd call their bluffs. Otherwise, they could just steal pots over and over knowing if I don't have the nuts, they could bluff at it and take it down. I let them know they couldn't do that...I'd defend my money. But the key is don't do it too much or you are just throwing your money away. Make a statement or two early and that's all you need.

Originally Posted by Dorkus Malorkus

I'll ignore the actual hand and just make a general comment.

If you truly know you're beat, there's only one reason that you're calling. you want to be proved 'right', you want him to show that he rivered you so that everyone can see that that nasty little rascal outdrew you and so that you can see that you must be a great poker player because you were 'right' about him rivering you.

Eliminate this from your mind. A truly good poker player does not need to be shown he is 'right' - he will just simply fold and move on if he is confident enough that he is beaten. Ego has no place in poker, nor does thinking in terms of 'right' and 'wrong'.

If you believe this may be an issue, I ramble on some more about relevant issues https://www.cardschat.com/f49/poker-ego-getting-what-you-deserve-77829/.

I've called plenty of bets in the past just to show my opponent how unlucky i've been. Totally ridiculous, no-one cares about your bad beats .

Tiltboy, of course you can call too much, but you can also fold too much. Everyone is trying to do the Hellmuthesque laydowns, but in the example you gave, he could have been betting away with loads of hands you could have beat - AA for instance. You've got to remember that you don't have to get every decision right in poker - in your example you only have to be right 1 time in 4 to break even, and i would guess you'd win here more than that.

There came a time when I finally laid down KK, to what was obviously a str8 to the A.
Rather than feel sick about it, I felt elated. The str9 was proved cause someone else hung, with a hand I would have beat, my trip K's would have beat the trip trip Q's but the read I got was that the str8 was made. It was remarkably easy. And remarkably fullfilling.

Now, when I get to the point I can hang up on AAA, I'll feel goood knowing I have passed another hurdle. Hasn't happened yet though.

In one of the posts in another thread there was the great idea of not having your mouse pointer hovering anywhere near the action buttons. It becomes a time consuming chore then to put it in the right place and click the action. In that time your mind is churning away at what the right action might be. It may only be a micro second, but that time is well spent.

Remember that the only gut feeling you want to pay any real attention to is the one that comes just before you upchuck dinner...........on a friend.......

Originally Posted by robwhufc

Tiltboy, of course you can call too much, but you can also fold too much. Everyone is trying to do the Hellmuthesque laydowns, but in the example you gave, he could have been betting away with loads of hands you could have beat - AA for instance. You've got to remember that you don't have to get every decision right in poker - in your example you only have to be right 1 time in 4 to break even, and i would guess you'd win here more than that.

This is sort of why I ignored the hand in my last post. I think it's actually a very marginal decision and not worth OP getting worked up over.

Originally Posted by FinalTable

Online - sometimes I'll call a relative small bet even though I know I'm beat.

What's reasonable? If I'm at say the .10/.25NL tables, and someone rivers me after calling all the way - and say there is $5.00 in the pot, and he bets 0.75-1.50 - I'll call just to make him show. I may only do this once at a table especially if I've never played this person for.

Why would I call when I know I'm beat? I've caught a LOT of people putting a post oak bluff on the river online. I want them to know that if they bet on the river - they better have it cuz I'll make them show. I did this twice last night and won $10 because twice two diff people (at a 4 handed table) called my TP all the way to river and looked like a flush came out. One bet - one reraised...but it was relatively a small bet so I called and neither had it. Then again, same circumstances (I think I had 2 pair vs a 10-K on the board). The K came on river and he bet $3.00. I called and he was bluffing. After that, I started getting hands checked to me on river. If they bet on river after that and I didn't have a great hand, I could be sure I was beat. I ended up leaving the table tripled up.

I was willing to go down a few BB to let the others know I'd call their bluffs. Otherwise, they could just steal pots over and over knowing if I don't have the nuts, they could bluff at it and take it down. I let them know they couldn't do that...I'd defend my money. But the key is don't do it too much or you are just throwing your money away. Make a statement or two early and that's all you need.

This is perfect advice imo and well worth taking on board.