Hands and flops that ruin your bankroll.

titans4ever

titans4ever

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I have noticed that there are certain hands that trap alot of players and can just punish your bankroll or tournament life. I got in a discussion with another play that I feel is really good and we talked about all 3 of these.

1) The overpair. I have JJ in late position and raise and have two callers. The first to act bets, the next one reraises and triples the bet. Now what do you do? You have top pair beat but with all that action you still only have one pair. This is one of those way ahead or way behind type situations. Either way you are going to have to invest alot to find out.

2) A three suited card flop. I see so many people go broke with one pair on a flop that has 3 suited cards. Is it that hard to believe someone flops a flush? Two on the flop and one on turn or river and people will get out of the way thinking they caught it. I am still trying to find a balance or way to play this flop. You have to bet it out but what do you do if you get any callers?

3) You have a pocket pair and flop comes with a small pair. You limp with 55 and the board comes 44J. This is a hand you win small or lose big. You really only have to dodge one card, the J, to have the best hand. You did not catch your set but it looks like you should be ahead here. The problem is if you don't bet you are more than likely going to see an over card and get even more scared. You bet it out and get a call you don't really gain any information on if they have the trips, a larger pocket pair, two overs or hit the J. What do you do on the turn? Fire again to try and take it down with a block bet or check and show weakness and fold when he bets.

Anyone else know of a flop or situation that always seems to have them guessing what to do early in the hand?

P.S. This my 1000th post and wanted to to be something more than a one line answer.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Congrats on 1,000 posts, titans.

Those are all nasty scenarios. 2) can especially relate to as I've been playing a lot of freerolls/VIP freerolls lately; for some reason I've had a low interest in competition level/winning cash lately and have been happily donking it up on the no risk/minimal reward levels. Lots of limped pots as well as raised pots where the raises are almost meaningless so I've been just throwing away my hands when a flush shows up.

On the other hand I happily drew out on a flush flop at $10NL yesterday when I hit a set on the flop and villain decided to slow play his nut flush, allowing me to lead the betting and draw to a full house and stack him.


JJ, QQ, KK when an overcard flops is always a challenge too, although I try to remember WA/WB, as well as the fact that as far as the opponents are concerned I could be on AK.


Or AA/KK, no chance to reraise preflop, with a low flop but villain leads at the flop, or reraises. Set? Even 2 pair is ahead of me at this point.


I guess the thing that these have in common is you have something, not the nuts and not crap, but it's not deceptively strong either. Where do you stand, and how do you find out?
 
A

alan1983

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AK oop. You play it strong preflop, flop comes rags with 2 suited. You c-bet, he thinks then calls. Youre thinking he could be on a draw or doesnt believe you hit, you think take another stab, he calls again, and by river pots so big youre tempted to fire a 3rd shot :)
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

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For me it's always AK or AQ, late in a game when you've been card dead for a long period. It looks great but the flop invariably comes 9-8-7 with 2 of a suit. Problem with this is there are always folks in a hand with 2 suited cards or 2 connectors - or both. The standard 4-6xBB pre-flop raises generally don't work with these types so you end up with a good chunk of money in the pot, a dead flop, and a tough decision to make.

Personally, I have never called a good sized pre-flop raise with a low to mid connector or two suited cards - but I've lost to this stuff more times than I care to count.

If the flop is suited and I'm in the hand, it's a guarantee that someone played a 9-3 of that suit. The only good thing is I'm getting much better at laying a "good" hand down in this situation than I used to. The only problem that occurs is when I reverse tilt and start to believe everyone is bluffing me...
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Congrats on the 1000th post, titans :)


1) The overpair. I have JJ in late position and raise and have two callers. The first to act bets, the next one reraises and triples the bet. Now what do you do? You have top pair beat but with all that action you still only have one pair. This is one of those way ahead or way behind type situations. Either way you are going to have to invest alot to find out.

2) A three suited card flop.

3) You have a pocket pair and flop comes with a small pair. You limp with 55 and the board comes 44J. This is a hand you win small or lose big.

tbh, the only one I think should be a real threat to your stack was 1) having an overpair. In that example, our action should of course be dependent on stack sizes, whether it was a tourney/cash game, reads etc, but that is a big pain. Hence why I love to call TAG EP raises with trash in hopes of stacking them :)

2) Having an overpair or TPTK on a suited flop really shouldn't be something we get our whole stack in with. That is unless I've got TP with the redraw to the nut flush, in which case I'd happily get my stack in. But ya...if we've got say KQs on a Q92 hearts flop, we should rarely get our stack in there. Toss a bet or raise in, and if you meet too much resistance, shut down and try to see a cheap showdown.

3) This one's really not something you should be committing yourself to. With an overcard and a pair on board, you really shouldn't get too many of your chips in the middle. Tossing out a bet is fine, but if you get called, ask yourself what he's calling with?

Anyways, not trying to rag on you, I understand you're in the middle of a brutal slump. Why not post some hands and get some feedback on how you're playing?
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Sometimes you're just too reasonable, Chuck. :p

Here we're commiserating with titans and you point out that we don't have to go broke.
 
G

g0tjohnd

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3) You have a pocket pair and flop comes with a small pair. You limp with 55 and the board comes 44J. This is a hand you win small or lose big.

Throwing my 2 cents in

I don't think this would hurt your bankroll too bad because you limped in with 55, people call limps with ATC so i probably think your not good here unless there was a raise preflop. If there was no raise I'd just bet and if im re raised or called ill calm down on the turn :) Hitting my boat of course ;)
 
S

Shiv4life

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1. I feel you have to be very cautious with any pocket pair. Even with AA/KK, although your equity may be big, be careful. I have seen many situations where these high pairs go bust. Ofcourse, reraise preflop... and if someone else does the raising, call or reraise as long as it does not get too high relative to your pair. If you miss the flop, but have the highest pair from your pocket cards (all flop cards are lower), bet strong. Get as many hands out of the way as possible. You may trap the person who has highest pair on the flop or win the pot right there. Then watch out on the turn. If a higher card than your pair comes, it is tricky. Make a small bet, and if raised, this should confirm you are beat, and fold. If the turn is another low card and you still have the highest pair, bet strong again. The opposition will still be in the trap. If the turn pairs with another card in the flop, and your opponent raises, he/she may have made a set and consider folding. Same applies to the river, but there is a lot in the pot by this time that you should call a bet anyway if it is small enough. Also, if anything scary comes up on the board such as 4 suited cards or 4 cards to a straight, fold your pair. They go bust easily.
Although this may not be the perfect play, I do this with any pair i get, betting more and the pair ranking goes higher, and i do perfectly well with it. The win can be big, and the loss not as costly as it could have been.

2. Neglecting anyones pocket cards, if three suited cards come up on the flop, there are 10 outs to 4 suited cards on the board. This means it will come up 10*4 = 40% of the time on the turn or river. 2 out of 5 times you can expect to see it. If you have already made the flush on the flop, make sure you have a very high card and bet on. If you have one card in your pocket that is high and of the suit of this possible flush, also play it, but be aware of your pot odds. The only thing you have to be afraid of here are possible straight flushes. If you have none of the suit of the possible flush, fold.

3. That situation i really dont know. I would fold becuase you only have 5s...and the turn or river could bring up high cards. If i had a very high pair i would bet strong, but what about possible set of 4s? dont know.
 
beardyian

beardyian

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:congrats: Congrats on the 1,000

I know people always bemoan JJ but i feel as though i have had mild success rate with it.

Always raise strongly and so if you are still called/raised you have to presume at least 1 over card is out there (a reraise would suggest a PP)

If the flop has no paint it should be safe to shoot again and take the pot, if, however, K,Q, or A show maybe check or post a tester bet depending on opponent/style of play etc.

Either way you should be able to gauge where you are without losing too much more if you are behind.

2,3) I always used to play fairly timid at these kind of hands but you see so many people just watch the checks work their way around a table and then just pop out 2BB bet to take it without having to show.

This works more often than you think - because i have found if someone has hit they tend to re-raise giving you that exit before it gets too messy, and if your are just called the odds are they will be just as unsure as you and also hoping for some kind of clarity come the turn or river card.

I find a check on the turn, followed by a bet on the river is often enough.

Basically, aggression often does work, as if the flop is a mess, the game needs someone to clean up :D
 
edge-t

edge-t

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I have noticed that there are certain hands that trap alot of players and can just punish your bankroll or tournament life. I got in a discussion with another play that I feel is really good and we talked about all 3 of these.

1) The overpair. I have JJ in late position and raise and have two callers. The first to act bets, the next one reraises and triples the bet. Now what do you do? You have top pair beat but with all that action you still only have one pair. This is one of those way ahead or way behind type situations. Either way you are going to have to invest alot to find out.
Usually I fold, overpair can't stand that much action. Bet, reraise? I'm out of there. Most of the time, either one of them has got 2 pairs or better.

2) A three suited card flop. I see so many people go broke with one pair on a flop that has 3 suited cards. Is it that hard to believe someone flops a flush? Two on the flop and one on turn or river and people will get out of the way thinking they caught it. I am still trying to find a balance or way to play this flop. You have to bet it out but what do you do if you get any callers?
I just got stacked on this one. Usually, if I'm first to act, I'll bet 1/2-2/3 the pot. If faced with a reraise, I'm out. In position, I'll reraise if bet into, I'm out if villain comes over the top.

3) You have a pocket pair and flop comes with a small pair. You limp with 55 and the board comes 44J. This is a hand you win small or lose big. You really only have to dodge one card, the J, to have the best hand. You did not caoltch your set but it looks like you should be ahead here. The problem is if you don't bet you are more than likely going to see an over card and get even more scared. You bet it out and get a call you don't really gain any information on if they have the trips, a larger pocket pair, two overs or hit the J. What do you do on the turn? Fire again to try and take it down with a block bet or check and show weakness and fd when he bets.

This kind of flop, I'll bet with any two cards and evaluate on the turn. If I'm in position, I'll check behind on the turn, if Villain tries to trap, fold to a river bet. Out of position, I'll take another stab at the pot, if Villain comes over the top, which usually they will, if they have trips, I'm out. If they call, they probably have the J, they're unsure of if they're good too. It's more or less dependent on the Villain's image. If it's a calling station, forget it.


Anyone else know of a flop or situation that always seems to have them guessing what to do early in the hand?

P.S. This my 1000th post and wanted to to be something more than a one line answer.

I'm not a very good player, but that's usually how I'd play these few scenerio.
 
crancko

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I'd add the dreaded set trap. Flop gives you a high set - could be K 2 K with you holding AK. You go for it only to encounter the dude holding 22...

Just seen this particular example in a bodog tourney i'm playing. Luckily i wasnt in the hand :)
 
tiltboy

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1) The overpair. I have JJ in late position and raise and have two callers. The first to act bets, the next one reraises and triples the bet. Now what do you do? You have top pair beat but with all that action you still only have one pair. This is one of those way ahead or way behind type situations. Either way you are going to have to invest alot to find out.
I wouldnt get to involved, really depends on the board. If i see a potential straight, flush, set im even more inclined to walk away. The fact someone UTG is prepared to bet after your initial raise PF and is then re-raised i would be concerned. I dont like to get too involved with a pair.

2) A three suited card flop. I see so many people go broke with one pair on a flop that has 3 suited cards. Is it that hard to believe someone flops a flush? Two on the flop and one on turn or river and people will get out of the way thinking they caught it. I am still trying to find a balance or way to play this flop. You have to bet it out but what do you do if you get any callers?
All dependant on the table, players, position etc. Generally speaking, once again a pair is not a hand i will become to committed to. Low limits (cash games) i tend to keep pots low with average hands. I read from

3) You have a pocket pair and flop comes with a small pair. You limp with 55 and the board comes 44J. This is a hand you win small or lose big. You really only have to dodge one card, the J, to have the best hand. You did not catch your set but it looks like you should be ahead here. The problem is if you don't bet you are more than likely going to see an over card and get even more scared. You bet it out and get a call you don't really gain any information on if they have the trips, a larger pocket pair, two overs or hit the J. What do you do on the turn? Fire again to try and take it down with a block bet or check and show weakness and fold when he bets.
I would be inclined to bet here, with caution. The fact you limped implies that other players could easily have a four with the blinds are small or the blinds considering they get in for cheeaper and never raised, also theres a good possibility of having the jack. I would bet 1/2 pot (dependent on stack, position etc) trying to rep the 4 if i get called i will slow down and consider the hand over. I will leave if i am bet into.
:)
 
W

WhodeyX

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I would probably have to say one of the worst hands to come by is a high middle pocket pair, such as 8's. It seems like almost everytime, the flop will be something like or similar A 2 J or 6 3 6. In these situations, with numerous callers, you would normally feel comfortable with the ladder of the two. In my experience, particularly with bodog, I always seem to run into somebody with an even higher pocket pair or two over cards that they just happen to catch later on. Even if I do catch trips off the flop, it almost always comes along with a large amount of draws. For some reason, those seem to be my biggest downfall in bigger tournaments and sit and go's. I've now resorted to playing them much more conservatively instead of being aggressive pre-flop.
 
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