Getting frustrated with 5NL

[enesem]

Did you try this method at 5NL?

Yes I did. At 5/10 it's like looking at a jigsaw without the lid. I just find the whole business random and pointless.

Here's an example - say you have 2 idiots at the table who bet 1bb each in MP. I am in LP on the button with a good hand so I raise.

Idiots both call because they are pot committed (already got 1bb invested, so have to play that 92o hand now...) A tight reg who may well fold against the raise now has decent odds to call, so he comes along for the ride. If he hits the flop, he's in...

Now I am in a 4 way pot with a good hand. I am now wary of the reg, but also have 2 idiots who will hang on to the weak hand as they are in the pot.

So, what do I do now ? Raise ? Fold ? Call ?

Whatever I do, it's the wrong thing. I will lose this hand. More times than I will win, so my win rate is down. It messes you up. Do you protect your AA with a big all in on the flop ? You'll win the hand but it's not good poker. Or play strategically and still get drawn out - 3 players looking for improving hands, one of them will get it.

Why is 25 different ? Because I play flops against 1 player, so can work out what's going on. People rarely invest in bad hands, not like 5/10.

I can move beyond the strategy of waiting for QQ+ to go head to head.

You don't get the idiots hanging on and taking you out.

I have mentioned this before, but every time I go back to 5/10, there will be a complete idiot show up, play complete garbage, triple up and leave. Last weekend I saw a guy turn $10 to $40 in less than 50 hands, and he never raised once. Called everything and got exactly what he needed.

When there are no idiots there are just tight regs set mining or nut peddling. You either win small or lose big.

At 25NL I can play a more measured game. I end up in all in situations a lot less (they just don't happen as often), and if I lose I understand how I lost. I can use creative lines and the results match my expectations.

5/10 is just a mess, it's not a fun way to learn for me. I will keep at it as a personal mission to make up my losses, but I do not enjoy or feel good playing that level. At 25 NL I feel more comfortable.

Not claiming to be the next Phil Ivey. But I am learning, and learning a lot more at 25.

Just saying, for me, it's better. Not putting you guys down who kill 5/10, you clearly are much better than me, I just can't find my feet at that level of the game.

 

[Rhinelander]

Do you protect your AA with a big all in on the flop ? You'll win the hand but it's not good poker.

I think doing the best you can in choosing your best option to win the hand IS prime poker.

Or play strategically and still get drawn out

Don't want to raise the flak again as you called it earlier but that is a beautiful example for the issue called fancy syndrom.

Why not just choose the appropriate weapons that will get the most out of your opponents?

 

[Keith_MM]

Yes I did. At 5/10 it's like looking at a jigsaw without the lid. I just find the whole business random and pointless.

this just shows that you have missed a wole lot of learning . these guys are still at 25nl just a lot less of them. the idiots are what you pad your bankroll with, the regs you end up swapping coolers with

Here's an example - say you have 2 idiots at the table who bet 1bb each in MP. I am in LP on the button with a good hand so I raise.

Idiots both call because they are pot committed (already got 1bb invested, so have to play that 92o hand now...) A tight reg who may well fold against the raise now has decent odds to call, so he comes along for the ride. If he hits the flop, he's in...

This example shows some lack of understanding. The limping idiots do not get to call before the tight reg gets to play so that they can't give him decent odds to call. He either called your raise before they called it or he limped in as well in which case he probably isn't very good either.

You are also showing that you don't know how to exploit these idiots. If they are limp calling anything raise bigger with your big pocket pairs and get the value while they are willing to give it to you . find the point at which they find the raise size uncomfortable and start to fold to the raise so that you can isolate one of them.

Now I am in a 4 way pot with a good hand. I am now wary of the reg, but also have 2 idiots who will hang on to the weak hand as they are in the pot.

So, what do I do now ? Raise ? Fold ? Call ?

why don't you want them to call you down with bottom pair? these guys are ATMs , milk them . If you raised bigger the tight reg probably doesn't get involved in the hand.If you hit the flop bet bet bet but keep the pot smalllish if you only have TP. if you have a monster like set flush or straight just bet to get the money in .

Whatever I do, it's the wrong thing. I will lose this hand. More times than I will win, so my win rate is down. It messes you up. Do you protect your AA with a big all in on the flop ? You'll win the hand but it's not good poker. Or play strategically and still get drawn out - 3 players looking for improving hands, one of them will get it.

I suspect that you have selevctive memory , you are remembering the suckouts and forgetting all the hands you win. You aren't learning how to exploit the fish, they are where the bulk of your profits will come from.

Why is 25 different ? Because I play flops against 1 player, so can work out what's going on. People rarely invest in bad hands, not like 5/10.

I can move beyond the strategy of waiting for QQ+ to go head to head.

You don't get the idiots hanging on and taking you out.

if you are only playing QQ+ then you are going to be super exploited at any level and this sounds like entitlement tilt. you waited forever to get a hand to play and you aren't gonna fold it. The idiots know that you are playing a tight range so try and flop big in which case they likely get paid off with stacks or they fold and you only win a small pot which then reinforces your view that 2/5/10nl are unbeatable.

I have mentioned this before, but every time I go back to 5/10, there will be a complete idiot show up, play complete garbage, triple up and leave. Last weekend I saw a guy turn $10 to $40 in less than 50 hands, and he never raised once. Called everything and got exactly what he needed.

for every guy like this there will be 20 more who end up donating multiple stacks to the table and as you are only playing QQ+ you don't get to play a hand against them.

When there are no idiots there are just tight regs set mining or nut peddling. You either win small or lose big.

which tends to imply that you don't hand read very well and/or that you can't fold your big pocket pairs post flop.

At 25NL I can play a more measured game. I end up in all in situations a lot less (they just don't happen as often), and if I lose I understand how I lost. I can use creative lines and the results match my expectations.

several ways of interpreting this, it could be that you actually start folding more at 25nl, or you can start and put regs on a range leading to you folding or you are just swapping coolers.

5/10 is just a mess, it's not a fun way to learn for me. I will keep at it as a personal mission to make up my losses, but I do not enjoy or feel good playing that level. At 25 NL I feel more comfortable.

Not claiming to be the next Phil Ivey. But I am learning, and learning a lot more at 25.

Just saying, for me, it's better. Not putting you guys down who kill 5/10, you clearly are much better than me, I just can't find my feet at that level of the game.

you need more skills to beat 10 nl than 5nl and more skills to beat 25nl than 10nl. Chances are that you have just been lucky at 25nl.since your examples show some basic misunderstanding of how to beat fish.

 

[Thinker_145]

Look I have made my share of mistakes against fish but that doesn't mean I don't want to play them. The first reality is that the worse the poker player the more patience you need against them.

The only time that some fish have gotten the better of me is when a 60/5 fish is sitting on my left. That is a situation which require a complete change in your game. You should not open raise marginal hands that you normally do because there is very little fold equity. You should not steal blinds on the button. You should never even give it a thought to C-bet such a player OOP I have learned that very well after losing a lot of BB in doing that. You should not bluff fish anyways but doing so OOP is absolute disaster.

Limp in, see the flop and then only play when you hit it well. Don't raise your draws because there is little fold equity and once you hit your draw fish will pay you off anyways.

As for your question of what to do with limpers, well you limp yourself with anything other than QQ-AA and you outright shove with AK, you will be surprised how much money that move would make you in 5NL.

Now as for playing higher stakes this is my take on this. I realise fully well that no matter the multi tabling 10NL can never make me a good living but I am still sticking to it for one reason instead of moving to 20NL and that's to attain supreme emotional stability. I am still capable of massive tilt where I end up losing 2BI for no justified reason at all and then I decide to get up from my chair. Its a good thing that I manage to get up now instead of wanting to recover the money which used to be the case previously and is even more deadly.

However I must remove this absurd tilt angle from my game before I give a thought to playing more serious stakes. Attaining this stability has been more challenging than I thought but I'll keep working on it before I move up the micros.

 

[enesem]

To all who have commented -

You could well be right.

All as I can say is that for now, I am getting more from 25NL.

I take on board comments about 5/10, so here is what I will do - I will go back to 5/10 and continue to work at it, to see what develops. I will take on that challenge.

As for 25NL, I will continue to play, and see how it progresses.

If anything dramatic happens I'll post. I will also do so honestly.

 

[Arjonius]

It strikes me that discussions like this one often omit or at least under-weight an important point. Being able to adapt to your tables / opponents is a pretty important skill. You don't improve in this regard by looking for the kinds of tables and opponents you find easier.

 

[hashtag]

It strikes me that discussions like this one often omit or at least under-weight an important point. Being able to adapt to your tables / opponents is a pretty important skill. You don't improve in this regard by looking for the kinds of tables and opponents you find easier.

This is key to lots of regs at the micros. The regs do not stay around after a certain player leaves the room. Don't be one of these. Stay at the table and play all comers. Do this for your full session and see what you think after. It's a great way to learn!

 

[IPlay]

It strikes me that discussions like this one often omit or at least under-weight an important point. Being able to adapt to your tables / opponents is a pretty important skill. You don't improve in this regard by looking for the kinds of tables and opponents you find easier.

I hinted at this and got called a troll, lol.

 

[pfb8888]

if you can afford to play 25nl go there...

playing 5nl when you want to beat 25 is like playing play money when you want to beat 5

 

[SeaRun]

It strikes me that discussions like this one often omit or at least under-weight an important point. Being able to adapt to your tables / opponents is a pretty important skill. You don't improve in this regard by looking for the kinds of tables and opponents you find easier.

Speaking for myself only, while there's no doubt I have a lot to learn about any aspect of this game, I feel I do a relatively decent job of adjusting from LAG to TAG to Passive to Calling Stations, etc, yadda yadda. Like I said, still plenty to learn, but getting there. However, going back to the sample hand I posted where moron shoved with 9-2. That wasn't a bluff, he actually went over the top of a guy already AI. How do you adjust for that kind of bull? I mean, yes, the odds are greatly in the favour of the original shove, but I for one don't enjoy this type of poker. Personally, give me a table full of TAG or reasonably LAG players any day over this type of idiot.

Right now I play for the enjoyment and to learn the game. Yes, it's nice to make money and THAT should be anyone's end goal playing poker.

I hinted at this and got called a troll, lol.

The way words are delivered usually carry much more weight than the words themselves.

Back to the sample hand, I had 6-4 odds over idiot, but he would have beaten me if I was in the hand. Yes, over a long haul, I'll win 60% of the time, but to me, that isn't any kind of enjoyment. And "THAT", iplay, is what I was referring to when I said "coin flip".

I don't get angry with the game, and I certainly don't tilt, I'm well past that stage.

Peace

 

[Tammy]

I've just deleted a bunch of ridiculous nonsense in the thread. To the parties involved, do not continue with your argument and further derail this thread.

 

[YNWA]

I'm beginning to question how much I'm actually improving by playing 5nl when the correct way to play is to be totally predictable and further up in stakes will get you absolutely no where.

Question how much you actually enjoy playing poker , If your in it for a get rich quick scheme it probably won't work. As for wanting to get away from bad players that's just silly. If your unable to hand read and value bet correctly vs bad players why would you think you would fair better in a better player pool

 

[Arjonius]

Right now I play for the enjoyment and to learn the game. Yes, it's nice to make money and THAT should be anyone's end goal playing poker.

How much importance a player puts on making money is a completely personal matter. For instance, you might find it interesting to look up Andy Beal who lost millions playing HU LHE vs some of the world's best players.

And from the perspective of making money, what's the problem playing maniacs? They're a great source of profit. If you choose to give that up because you dislike the increased variance, that's your prerogative. But make no mistake. In the long run, choosing not to play them or other types of opponents against whom you're +EV will decrease your profitability.

So, like many aspects of poker, this one isn't binary unless you choose to make it so. If not, then it's a matter of balancing pros and cons that can have different weights at different times.

 

[Keith_MM]

This is key to lots of regs at the micros. The regs do not stay around after a certain player leaves the room. Don't be one of these. Stay at the table and play all comers. Do this for your full session and see what you think after. It's a great way to learn!

think of it this way.....if the nits and tags leaves that frees up seats for the fish to come and sit down if its a bunch more nits and tags that sit own , you can then make the deision to leaves and find a better table. Also ...look to start tables . many fish just want to play so they hit easy seat and get taken to a free seat , which is likely to be on your new table that you just started.

 

[enesem]

So today I played only 5NL.

I lost 6 buy ins over 750 hands. Some were just coolers, AA for example went down to 66 that flopped a set, just the way it goes.

However, one villain playing 65/5 just called everything and took me for 3 buy in's. The rest just dripped away in blinds and my raises being re-raised so I folded.

I didn't matter what I did, pre flop raise, post flop raise, I just could not shake him off, call, call, call, lose.

I played 16/12, I played only decent hole cards, dropped any flop that didn't hit, I got completely cleaned out. I thought is was going to be a golden table, there were 3 players I labelled as fish (single table, less than 100bb, high vpip, low pfr, calling 1bb pre flop etc). None of them suffered badyl, any hand had at least one of them, often two, and sometimes 3 of them. All calling everything, one of them usually cleaning up by the river.

Just the same frustration.

The 5 levels of poker are described as:

Level 0: I know nothing
Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have?
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they have?
Level 5: What does my opponent think that I think they think I have?

When I play 25NL, I can try and get level 2, putting the opponent on a range, I can also try and fool him into misreading my hand. So I can try to play up to level 3, ultimately the goal is to get to level 5. This is the mental level I work hard to operate at when I play 25NL and live casino cash games. My casino play is pretty good.

At 5NL, people don't think beyond level 1. I can't think about level 2 or 3, it's never going to be relevant.

I face a decision, what is my play supposed to get the villain to do ? Fold, call or raise ? How do I want the hand to play out ? At 5NL, you never get the result you want.

I promised to try it and keep you posted. I still stand by my position, to learn to get into true 5 level thinking in poker I need to play at a higher level.

 

[RodneyC86]

So today I played only 5NL.

I lost 6 buy ins over 750 hands. Some were just coolers, AA for example went down to 66 that flopped a set, just the way it goes.

However, one villain playing 65/5 just called everything and took me for 3 buy in's. The rest just dripped away in blinds and my raises being re-raised so I folded.

I didn't matter what I did, pre flop raise, post flop raise, I just could not shake him off, call, call, call, lose.

I played 16/12, I played only decent hole cards, dropped any flop that didn't hit, I got completely cleaned out. I thought is was going to be a golden table, there were 3 players I labelled as fish (single table, less than 100bb, high vpip, low pfr, calling 1bb pre flop etc). None of them suffered badyl, any hand had at least one of them, often two, and sometimes 3 of them. All calling everything, one of them usually cleaning up by the river.

Just the same frustration.

The 5 levels of poker are described as:

Level 0: I know nothing
Level 1: What do I have?
Level 2: What does my opponent have?
Level 3: What does my opponent think I have?
Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they have?
Level 5: What does my opponent think that I think they think I have?

When I play 25NL, I can try and get level 2, putting the opponent on a range, I can also try and fool him into misreading my hand. So I can try to play up to level 3, ultimately the goal is to get to level 5. This is the mental level I work hard to operate at when I play 25NL and live casino cash games. My casino play is pretty good.

At 5NL, people don't think beyond level 1. I can't think about level 2 or 3, it's never going to be relevant.

I face a decision, what is my play supposed to get the villain to do ? Fold, call or raise ? How do I want the hand to play out ? At 5NL, you never get the result you want.

I promised to try it and keep you posted. I still stand by my position, to learn to get into true 5 level thinking in poker I need to play at a higher level.

When you level yourself like that against 5NLers you're gonna have a bad time. You should almost never play above level 2 at 5NL. No one is gonna argue with you about needing to think on a higher level at 25NL. There is no question about that.

But your inability to just play the right exploitative strategy and stick with it when weathering a downswing speaks a lot of your mental game. Downswings at 25NL is gonna be larger no matter how you slice it.

EDIT: Also, level 5 thinking is overrated, i'll be very suprised if any multitabler can think above level 4 at best

 

[enesem]

When you level yourself like that against 5NLers you're gonna have a bad time. You should almost never play above level 2 at 5NL. No one is gonna argue with you about needing to think on a higher level at 25NL. There is no question about that.

But your inability to just play the right exploitative strategy and stick with it when weathering a downswing speaks a lot of your mental game. Downswings at 25NL is gonna be larger no matter how you slice it.

EDIT: Also, level 5 thinking is overrated, i'll be very suprised if any multitabler can think above level 4 at best

Understood. If I had to sum up my session yesterday I would say it was like this:

1/3 losses down to unlucky coolers.
1/3 losses marginal hands vs marginal hands - mine didn't improve, theirs did, villain called when I tried to cbet them to fold, they hung on and won the hand.
1/3 losses were just bad play, it was a long session and I made some bad decisions, i was pretty card dead and pushed some hands further than I should.

Losses were really down to a pretty dry run of cards and improving hands that just happened to improve in the wrong direction, plus coolers like AA going down to a set, I agree, it's a downswing and variance. I am OK with that.

The hands I lost through bad play, down to me. They are learning points.

The 1/3 of hands that I lost due to the villain improving and me not, these are hands that at 25NL I could try and win by aggressive betting, closing the hand pre-flop, aggressive cnet , check raise, etc, barrelling - these are important techniques that do work at 25NL, but at 5NL don't work.

Over the long run, it's this 1/3 section of play that can turn a session from a loss to a win.

I do understand variance and downswings, I am disappointed with the way things went yesterday but not angry, it was just a pretty grim session.

However I do feel that 1/3 of my play was compromised as I just could not try to do things that I would hope to try at 25NL.

But, I will continue to try to turn it around.

Overall, I have actually had a winning month:

25NL: UP $ 147.42 (3403 hands) +17.33 bb / 100
10NL: UP $ 36.80 (5836 hands) +6.31 bb/100
5 NL: DOWN $ 25.67 ( 2,499 hands) -20.54 bb/100

I know, small samples, but this is just March.

 

[RodneyC86]

Understood. If I had to sum up my session yesterday I would say it was like this:

1/3 losses down to unlucky coolers.
1/3 losses marginal hands vs marginal hands - mine didn't improve, theirs did, villain called when I tried to cbet them to fold, they hung on and won the hand.
1/3 losses were just bad play, it was a long session and I made some bad decisions, i was pretty card dead and pushed some hands further than I should.

Losses were really down to a pretty dry run of cards and improving hands that just happened to improve in the wrong direction, plus coolers like AA going down to a set, I agree, it's a downswing and variance. I am OK with that.

The hands I lost through bad play, down to me. They are learning points.

The 1/3 of hands that I lost due to the villain improving and me not, these are hands that at 25NL I could try and win by aggressive betting, closing the hand pre-flop, aggressive cnet , check raise, etc, barrelling - these are important techniques that do work at 25NL, but at 5NL don't work.

Over the long run, it's this 1/3 section of play that can turn a session from a loss to a win.

I do understand variance and downswings, I am disappointed with the way things went yesterday but not angry, it was just a pretty grim session.

However I do feel that 1/3 of my play was compromised as I just could not try to do things that I would hope to try at 25NL.

But, I will continue to try to turn it around.

Overall, I have actually had a winning month:

25NL: UP $ 147.42 (3403 hands) +17.33 bb / 100
10NL: UP $ 36.80 (5836 hands) +6.31 bb/100
5 NL: DOWN $ 25.67 ( 2,499 hands) -20.54 bb/100

I know, small samples, but this is just March.

I used to 'understand' variance. Until I played another few hundred thousand more hands. Even blackrain gave up trying to understand it and he has chalked up a 30bb/100 win rate over 2mil plus hands at 2nl. It's much bigger than you think. Thread with extreme caution

 

[enesem]

I used to 'understand' variance. Until I played another few hundred thousand more hands. Even blackrain gave up trying to understand it and he has chalked up a 30bb/100 win rate over 2mil plus hands at 2nl. It's much bigger than you think. Thread with extreme caution

When I say understand variance, I mean I know that downswings can last a long time - as you mention Blackrain says samples less than 100,000 may be meaningless. I do get that.

 

[Keith_MM]

So today I played only 5NL.

I lost 6 buy ins over 750 hands. Some were just coolers, AA for example went down to 66 that flopped a set, just the way it goes.

However, one villain playing 65/5 just called everything and took me for 3 buy in's. The rest just dripped away in blinds and my raises being re-raised so I folded.

I didn't matter what I did, pre flop raise, post flop raise, I just could not shake him off, call, call, call, lose.

I played 16/12, I played only decent hole cards, dropped any flop that didn't hit, I got completely cleaned out. I thought is was going to be a golden table, there were 3 players I labelled as fish (single table, less than 100bb, high vpip, low pfr, calling 1bb pre flop etc). None of them suffered badyl, any hand had at least one of them, often two, and sometimes 3 of them. All calling everything, one of them usually cleaning up by the river.

post the hands. Can't see anything about blind stealing to help protect against roll driping away, cbetting flops when you miss on dry boards, bet sizing etc ...are you playing for stacks with weak hands against fish etc. Theres nothing wrong with them calling you down with weak hands thats where your profits come from when you have big hands. etc

 

[akaRobbo]

@enesem, been playing a bit of 25NL and can see where you are coming from. Ive just been playing 1 table and putting full focus on it and to be honest finding it a lot of fun compared to 5NL.

Went back to 5NL just before and it's just an absolute minefield, and if you don't dodge all mines your win-rate is shattered. (I know this is part and parcel of poker) but 5NL takes it to the absolute extreme.

Hand from earlier vs a short-stack. UTG and UTG+1 limp, im BTN and raise my AQ 7xBB, BB calls everyone else folds. I miss my A on the flop and decide to check behind him, turn is an A and now there's 3 diamonds out. Villain bets, and I raise to put him all-in, and he turns over J9 offsuit and has hit top two-pair on the flop and ends up winning it. Typical 5NL, zzzzzzzz.

 

[Logan2]

5nl confirmed rigged


​

 

[akaRobbo]

5nl confirmed rigged

View attachment 60181
​

That's not a large enough sample to prove anything

 

[IPlay]

Running AA into a set is not really a cooler and chances are you did something wrong if you got stacks in the middle with just a pair.

 

[Thinker_145]

You don't play a 16/12 game when there are a bunch of fish on the table especially if they are on your left. You play a 20/5 game or possibly even something like 30/5. You limp with all your marginal hands and only raise the premiums, the fish are not going to notice that.

You don't c-bet a fish it really isn't worth it, they will still pay you off when you hit your hand and bet.

It seems to me you really don't understand ABC poker. When I encounter a single player with a VP of over 60 who has position on me I usually start a limping game and its worked wonderfully for me in the last week. What the hell is the point of making a PFR with 44 or 98s when you know that one player is going to call for sure and he won't be folding even bottom fair on the flop? Sure a reg on the table might notice this and when you do infact make a PFR with a big pair he will know. But we are not concerned about him as playing him is a completely different thing and we know how he plays.

I have learned one thing about micros over a large sample of hands now, you don't C-bet unknown players and fish.

And it's also perfectly alright to play a limping game depending on the table.