Flatting ACES......

[vinylspiros]

I think exploiting them by flatting monsters vs 3bets (or 4betting more) is a reasonable idea - if certain regs are 3betting light and folding nicely to 4bets that is. 4% 3bet is tight though, and looks like mostly value, so I would not be ****ing about with AA and 4bet it (assuming they GII pre with AK/QQ+ like all good chart readers should ).

The hand though. Leading that flop with a jam relies on you essentially coolering him. I check there 100% if I flat the 3bet pre.

^^^^^Lets look at an example for the limits im playing. 10NL.

Say i make a standard raise from cutoff to 30cents. and then button with a 9% 3bet raises to 1$flat and im 99% sure he's full of $hit. Whats the right 4betbluff amount ? so that i can comfortably fold to 5bet/shove without over commiting myself and at the same time making it look like my 4bet isn't bluffy? (lets assume both 100bb deep)

 

[loafes]

^^^^^Lets look at an example for the limits im playing. 10NL.

Say i make a standard raise from cutoff to 30cents. and then button with a 9% 3bet raises to 1$flat and im 99% sure he's full of $hit. Whats the right 4betbluff amount ? so that i can comfortably fold to 5bet/shove without over commiting myself and at the same time making it look like my 4bet isn't bluffy? (lets assume both 100bb deep)

About Tree fiddy?

 

[vinylspiros]

About Tree fiddy?

I was thinking that maybe even clicking it back to 2$ would have exactly the same effect and would save us 1.50$ if were he to 5bet shove. u think?

 

[vinylspiros]

So i just finished another hand and had this thread in mind while playing it. Take a look at this play and my reasoning.

This guy is running 34/27/12% 3bet over 65 hands. So im guessing hes a super aggro.


I choose to flat kk pre to his 4 bet because i feel that:

1: i might be in a cooler situation where he might have aces and decide to see a flop in case its scarry for his aces so that the action can slow down a bit,,

and 2: So that i could catch a K on the flop.


and 3: I don't wanna scare off worse hands.


Im lucky here that this guy is a donk but i believe that if i had not flat his 4bet pre and shoved that there might be a chance that i might have lost value as 5bet shoving is the nuts "ALWAYS" at 10NL.(and therefor he might have folded )



pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($13.89)
SB ($10.33)
BB ($9.45)
UTG ($12.42)
Hero (MP) ($11.22)
CO ($17.66)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K

, K

UTG raises to $0.29, Hero raises to $1.02, 4 folds, UTG raises to $2.30, Hero calls $1.28

Flop: ($4.75) 10

, 9

, K

(2 players)
UTG bets $2.20, Hero raises to $4.40, UTG raises to $10.12 (All-In), Hero calls $4.52 (All-In)

Turn: ($22.59) 8

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($22.59) 9

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $22.59 | Rake: $1.02

Results below:

Spoiler

UTG had Q

, Q

(two pair, Queens and nines).
Hero had K

, K

(full house, Kings over nines).
Outcome: Hero won $21.57

 

[loafes]

I was thinking that maybe even clicking it back to 2$ would have exactly the same effect and would save us 1.50$ if were he to 5bet shove. u think?

Well actually I think if I were 4 betting with the intention to fold to a 5bet I'd probably be going with about $3 but I guess I see where you're coming from that clicking back to $2 makes it difficult for the opponent, they might not give you much respect but then what do they make it? plus it may look like you're trying to get them to play back at you. Plus just the act of 4 betting regardless of price has some inherent value since how many players are going to be 5 bet bluffing at 10NL
wouldn't do it vs a fish though, they'd probably flat your 4 bet and play some weird postflop line

 

[vinylspiros]

Well actually I think if I were 4 betting with the intention to fold to a 5bet I'd probably be going with about $3 but I guess I see where you're coming from that clicking back to $2 makes it difficult for the opponent, they might not give you much respect but then what do they make it? plus it may look like you're trying to get them to play back at you. Plus just the act of 4 betting regardless of price has some inherent value since how many players are going to be 5 bet bluffing at 10NL
wouldn't do it vs a fish though, they'd probably flat your 4 bet and play some weird postflop line

this^^^^^^

 

[loafes]

It's just from my personal experience, i have noticed that althoughdonk shoving the flop is bad,it is also a very fishy line and alot of the time doesnt get any credit. especially with the preflop 3 and 4 betting wars the hand becomes more either i have it or i don't kind of hand.

I figure if someone is 4betting you then he most probably has ak with kk being a less likely scenario but still a chance.(if he hit a set of kings then im coollered so the result would have been the same if i had gotten it in pre)

I dont ever see him folding AK there as it is the best flop that someone with ak is ever gonna see so i decide to shove as the majority of players will snap call ak on such a dry flop.

If they have AK then you're getting it in weather you check or shove, but if he has AK then as said before, you've basically coolered him. The problem is that you lose a ton of value if he doesn't have AK even if they think the donkshove is fishy they may not have a hand worth calling or may realise what you're up to. Checking will guarantee results a large percentage of the time

 

[RodneyC86]

^^^^^Lets look at an example for the limits im playing. 10NL.

Say i make a standard raise from cutoff to 30cents. and then button with a 9% 3bet raises to 1$flat and im 99% sure he's full of $hit. Whats the right 4betbluff amount ? so that i can comfortably fold to 5bet/shove without over commiting myself and at the same time making it look like my 4bet isn't bluffy? (lets assume both 100bb deep)

22-23BB should be about right.

 

[Blobweird123]

Just now saw this thread.

The 1st hand is bad, sorry Vinyl. I believe it's ok to flat 3bets with Aces in position as long as you are ready to slow down postflop if need be. But to flat his 4bet (NOT 3bet there) out of position and then donk shove is bad. WHY are we leading that flop?

Think about what you said in the OP. You said people usually only 4bet with AA/KK. Sooooo what calls your shove there? Hmmm AA sure, so we chop, which we would've gotten it in either way by the river. Ooorrrr we get called by KK and are in terrible shape. Think about it.

Last but not least you talk about a good price for 4b/folding. Easy, just don't do it lol. No point to 4bet bluff at the micros ever. If they 3bet you and you have junk, just fold. If they 3bet you and you have a decent hand and you're in position, flat. But don't 4b at these limits with the intention of folding. I can safely say I've never 4b ANYTHING I'm not willing to stack off with at the micros. When you get to 25nl and up i'd say you can start working it into your game. Why leak the extra dough instead of just waiting for better spots?

 

[Blobweird123]

I think it seems like a good strategy, you played it unorthodox but in a good way , I wonder how this type of strategy with AA would hold up long term at this level of zoom, Seems great unless they are set mining and happen to hit it somehow, But against a lot of ranges if you are slow playing AA like this you most likely would still be ahead, I may be wrong though hopefully someone comes around who knows more than me and confirms whether this is good long term to maximize value with AA or if it is just a situational type of play you can use

Who is 4bet set mining? LOL

 

[loafes]

Who is 4bet set mining? LOL

Saw that before, found it a little amusing but chose not to comment on it

Although to be fair OP was talking about flatting 3 bets so the "set miners" would be 3 betting their 22-1010 or whatever with the intention of hitting a set or C/F which lets face it, is pretty exploitable

 

[vinylspiros]

Just now saw this thread.

The 1st hand is bad, sorry Vinyl. I believe it's ok to flat 3bets with Aces in position as long as you are ready to slow down postflop if need be. But to flat his 4bet (NOT 3bet there) out of position and then donk shove is bad. WHY are we leading that flop?

Think about what you said in the OP. You said people usually only 4bet with AA/KK. Sooooo what calls your shove there? Hmmm AA sure, so we chop, which we would've gotten it in either way by the river. Ooorrrr we get called by KK and are in terrible shape. Think about it.

^^^^^
Basically only AK and KK. But i get what your saying here. thing is that i put him exactly on AK so thats why i played it this way. but overall it's not the standard line i take withAA in this spot of course. I'm just saying that versus a looser type of villain , they are calling AK all day long on this flop.(even tight players have trouble folding AK here)

 

[RodneyC86]

^^^^^
Basically only AK and KK. But i get what your saying here. thing is that i put him exactly on AK so thats why i played it this way. but overall it's not the standard line i take withAA in this spot of course. I'm just saying that versus a looser type of villain , they are calling AK all day long on this flop.(even tight players have trouble folding AK here)

True, but you wanna fold out JJ or QQ who would attempt to rep AK or KK on this flop with a cbet?

 

[Blobweird123]

^^^^^
Basically only AK and KK. But i get what your saying here. thing is that i put him exactly on AK so thats why i played it this way. but overall it's not the standard line i take withAA in this spot of course. I'm just saying that versus a looser type of villain , they are calling AK all day long on this flop.(even tight players have trouble folding AK here)

I added to my post above if you don't mind reading it.

But anyways, this is another no no. You can't put him on AK exactly. You can put him on a range which includes AK, but honestly all he did was open/4bet. You have no idea what he has here lol. He could have JJ+ AK/maybe AQ.

 

[vinylspiros]

True, but you wanna fold out JJ or QQ who would attempt to rep AK or KK on this flop with a cbet?

thats basically the bad part about this play. But i dont really ever think that QQ and JJ are gonna be 4betting at 10NL too much of the time.(esp ZOOM) hence the play.


If the limit was higher than yea they will 4bet TT but this low they play pretty straightforward and QQ-JJ type of hands are in the setmining range if you ask me.(and arent really gonna be 4betting all that often).

I mean we are in a cash game with 100BB and not in a tourney.

 

[WVHillbilly]

True, but you wanna fold out JJ or QQ who would attempt to rep AK or KK on this flop with a cbet?

Also why would you "put him on AK" when you hold 2 aces? With a King on the flop there are only 6 combos of AK remaining for him to have. So he's twice as likely to have JJ/QQ as he is to have AK.

 

[Blobweird123]

thats basically the bad part about this play. But i dont really ever think that QQ and JJ are gonna be 4betting at 10NL too much of the time.(esp ZOOM) hence the play.


If the limit was higher than yea they will 4bet TT but this low they play pretty straightforward and QQ-JJ type of hands are in the setmining range if you ask me.(and arent really gonna be 4betting all that often).

I mean we are in a cash game with 100BB and not in a tourney.

I'd like to see the sample you have to back this up. Because even in my, im sure much smaller, sample I have seen plenty of QQ 4bets along with a few TT/JJ 4bets.

And WVH took it to another level that I didn't even get to. Combinatorics. As he said, there is soooo few combos of AK left that its another reason to stop putting people on specific hands esp when you hold a million and one blockers to said hand.

 

[WVHillbilly]

thats basically the bad part about this play. But i dont really ever think that QQ and JJ are gonna be 4betting at 10NL too much of the time.(esp ZOOM) hence the play.


If the limit was higher than yea they will 4bet TT but this low they play pretty straightforward and QQ-JJ type of hands are in the setmining range if you ask me.(and arent really gonna be 4betting all that often).

I mean we are in a cash game with 100BB and not in a tourney.

If he's only 4betting KK+/AK as you seem to be saying, just get it in pre since he won't be folding any of that range anyway.

 

[vinylspiros]

I'd like to see the sample you have to back this up. Because even in my, im sure much smaller, sample I have seen plenty of QQ 4bets along with a few TT/JJ 4bets.

Well to be honest, i dont know how to filter my hud to show me how many times villains have 4bet with TT-QQ type of hands but from playing experience ive noticed that they take a more cautious approach with these hands depending on how deep we and villain are. But i could be way off.

Don't forget im talking about zoom where your playing against unknows and the game is a bit nittier.

 

[RodneyC86]

thats basically the bad part about this play. But i dont really ever think that QQ and JJ are gonna be 4betting at 10NL too much of the time.(esp ZOOM) hence the play.


If the limit was higher than yea they will 4bet TT but this low they play pretty straightforward and QQ-JJ type of hands are in the setmining range if you ask me.(and arent really gonna be 4betting all that often).

I mean we are in a cash game with 100BB and not in a tourney.

You mean not 3betting too much? Aren't we flatting a 3bet here.? QQ
JJ and possibly TT are definitely possible even among fairly nitty regs. No one 3bets 2 pct or less anymore. We'll nearly no one

 

[loafes]

I think these days a lot more people are learning to make plays like 3 betting light so sometimes under certain circumstances you can incorporate light 4 betting to balance your range and just put it back on the light 3 bettor. Heck believe it or not I've even started incorporating light 3 betting at 2NL against certain players in certain situations and been surprised by how well this has been working out for me.

 

[vinylspiros]

Also why would you "put him on AK" when you hold 2 aces? With a King on the flop there are only 6 combos of AK remaining for him to have. So he's twice as likely to have JJ/QQ as he is to have AK.

If he's only 4betting KK+/AK as you seem to be saying, just get it in pre since he won't be folding any of that range anyway.

you have a point. as i said, the play is not that great. Reason i posted it is because i wanted to show that i allowed him to catch up and get some value where if i had shoved pre ,he might have folded. All n all , i am not a huge fan of the play either.(postflop that is)

 

[Blobweird123]

I think these days a lot more people are learning to make plays like 3 betting light so sometimes under certain circumstances you can incorporate light 4 betting to balance your range and just put it back on the light 3 bettor. Heck believe it or not I've even started incorporating light 3 betting at 2NL against certain players in certain situations and been surprised by how well this has been working out for me.

I agree it can work sure. But its just totally unnecessary at these levels its ridiculous. You can crush them in better spots, so why bother? You're just gonna get yourself into more and more tough spots postflop where you're double barreling with air.

 

[loafes]

I agree it can work sure. But its just totally unnecessary at these levels its ridiculous. You can crush them in better spots, so why bother? You're just gonna get yourself into more and more tough spots postflop where you're double barreling with air.

Of course I wasn't talking about doing it often at all, only once in a blue moon vs particular players you have history with.

But Infact I actually agree with you, that you don't need to make that play because you can find much better spots. I was just giving the other side of the argument for throwing in an occasional light 4 bet

 

[RodneyC86]

you have a point. as i said, the play is not that great. Reason i posted it is because i wanted to show that i allowed him to catch up and get some value where if i had shoved pre ,he might have folded. All n all , i am not a huge fan of the play either.(postflop that is)

Agreed, don't 3bet light, it's a bluff. Bluff 2nl = bad. But go ahead and do it on certain regs there though. They are too boneheaded to pick up on you. Even when they do, they won't know how to respond without AA/KK.

It's perfectly acceptable to 3bet a bigger value range though. If anything you want to value them ASAP before other regs get to the fish first.

EDIT: sorry meant to respond to the light 3bet post at 2nl