Facing 3bs OOP with semi-premiums

[-Phil Ivey27]

Baudib you do have a hud tho right? Or some kind of read on these players habits?

Btw, love the shove with JJ but in all honestly what made you do that? To get 77 or 88 type hands to hero call? I figure if he had those types then he would continuation bet unless planning a crazy check raise..

Love it tho, makin a hero call with dueces is retarded to me

Looks to me like your shoving 77 at the absolute minimum. I would put you on A9 or tens. And even 87s is a favorite there lmao

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

He was honestly that bad to call with A high?

 

[JCgrind]

Folding 70% to 3bets is definitely not optimal

also, because i open like 20% over all and like 45% Bu & SB so 70% becomes optimal for me i believe, if not close- whereas youre probably opening way tighter cos you play FR therefore 70% would be way too high

 

[baudib1]

Getting back on topic. Not folding to 3-bets was a leak of mine for a long time and still is really. But in general, folding TT/AQ and even some better hands OOP to a 3-bet from a nit or TAG (if you have a tight image) is generally going to be your best play. I'd be really surprised if you are profitable with those hands when facing a 3-bet at NL25 or lower.

Btw, love the shove with JJ but in all honestly what made you do that?

Mostly because I suck at poker but I felt he was mostly checking SD value type hands (as opposed to trapping with QQ+) and would never fold any pair and probably call off with AQ/AK type hands.

Trust me when I say that for the most part, I have never had much trouble getting action when ahead and I have special talent for tilting people.

 

[acky100]

also, because i open like 20% over all and like 45% Bu & SB so 70% becomes optimal for me i believe, if not close- whereas youre probably opening way tighter cos you play FR therefore 70% would be way too high

This is the thing, just because i play FR doesn't mean i should fold the button and small blind any less than you, or defend to 3bets more or less. fwiw i open about 50% in the sb and 50% on the button.

I was just saying folding to 70% is not theoretically close to optimal as even if you open 100% or 10% of hands, if you fold 70% of them you're exploitable to 3bets by ATC. I agree its probably optimal for multitabling 10nl though for sure, you arent gonna get exploited enough to want to get nit picky and defend like 50%. Its just not about tightness or looseness at all is what im trying to say, you get 3bet you have to defend a set % of your range in order to not be exploitable by ATC, this number does not depend on anything but the size of the 3bet they make.

 

[JCgrind]

^ yep right, roger, totally makes sense lol

 

[GWU73]

Folding too often is a significant leak but calling a 3bet to play fit or fold on the flop is throwing money away. If you have a strong hand or feel confident you can steal the pot fairly often calling can be ok, especially in position. 4betting is often better than calling, especially out of position. Just pick your spots.

 

[JCgrind]

Folding too often is a significant leak but calling a 3bet to play fit or fold on the flop is throwing money away. If you have a strong hand or feel confident you can steal the pot fairly often calling can be ok, especially in position. 4betting is often better than calling, especially out of position. Just pick your spots.

I'm leaning towards 4b, but I hate 4b/fold so I'm thinking maybe just 4b shove?
This kinda sucks too though....

As far as I can calculate, in a standard 10NL spot say I open to 3BB w/ AQo front the BTN, SB 3bs me to 9BB, I 4b to 22BB;
-I'm risking $2.20 to win $1.30
-Assuming I always fold to a 5b shove, i need to get him to fold 65%+ to show profit.
- I hate 4b shoving pre because I'm virtually always drawn dead if I get called here, it's always QQ+/AK

I will mainly be doing my 4b bluffing in BTNvInd spots, and therefore looking at positional 3b stats, ie I assume ones 3b in SB stat is going to as wide if not wider than indicated vs a BTN open. So if this stat is like ~10% its theoretically profitable, assuming vils 5b shove range is like JJ+, AK and he folds everything else, however this is not the case. From experience, I get called here by AK AQs, 77-JJ a lot, and consequently am not sure how to proceed on virtually Any board.

Obv any kind of equity on any flip I'm bet/shoving, maybe even open shoving if I like it more. Blank flops I'm prob doing the same.

Any thoughts on my aforementioned logic slash lack thereof? Lol

 

[baudib1]

JJ has 36% vs. QQ+/AK, which is a far cry from drawing dead.

 

[GWU73]

If you have trash and poor position, consider folding to the 3bet. Most players, especiall novice players and nits are 3betting strong hands.
4bet shoving is slightly higher ev than 2.5x 4bet/folding. Primarily because of the increased fold equity. Both options have their places and require an opponent who can fold a medium strength hand like TT or for you to have a good enough hand to play a big pot. Folding weak hands OOP is usually a good choice.

If your opponent has a tendency to 3bet bluff frequently, you can flat with a monster and lead out or check raise on the flop. Against some players you can bluff this line but it is a dangerous play. Applied against the right opponent, it can be profitable. Leading the flop can also be less expensive than 4betting as a bluff. Ususally just tightening up your raising requirements (so your range is strong enough to stand a 3bet) against this type of player will win their money. Be careful who you make moves against. If your opponent is like most low level NL players, their 3bet is usually real. They have a hand. Calling to to hit a mirical is costly; you need excellent implied odds.

 

[c9h13no3]

Folding 70% to 3bets is definitely not optimal if we wanna look at it through making ourselves unexploitable to other regs.

Folding at 70% is most certainly optimal, because that number reflects how we play against all our opponents, not the one or two regs looking to exploit us. Obviously we respond differently to different opponents.

I started to nit pick the rest of your post, but then remembered you suck at the 3-bet game.

 

[acky100]

I was going to reply myself but then remembered

1) You don't actually know much about the current climate of online poker.

2) You're a twat.

 

[JCgrind]

i agree.

i dont know why you bother wasting your time on cc c9, cos youre obviously a superstar and much better than all of us here, at least your attitude implies that you think that way. regardless, you dont seem to have much to gain reading these threads, so feel free to stop wasting both your time and ours

 

[baudib1]

C9 is a good guy and has probably contributed more meaningful strat talk/guides on CC than the rest of us combined.

 

[A2345Razz]

Im just getting into playing NLH cash online(basically to just sharpen my game up in general) and I have to say calling 50% of 3b pots in FR seems ridiculous in the 10NL games im in.

Obv its ALL VILLAIN DEPENDENT, but constantly calling 3b when people have HUDs on your 3B calling frequency cant be good bc there is a built in amount of 3b that will be nutted or premium hands...and the rest of villains range will melt away if you are playing a "sticky" style and people are seeing stats that reflect that.

Also the equity analysis provided in this thread seems to assume no cold 4betting or cold calls by other people in the pot, and doesnt presuppose people's ranges changing as they get more info on us.

Just my 2cents, but like I said...im just coming back to NLH ring games.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Folding at 70% is most certainly optimal, because that number reflects how we play against all our opponents, not the one or two regs looking to exploit us. Obviously we respond differently to different opponents.

+1 I think that a 70% overall f3bet is pretty close to optimal at FR.

C9 is a good guy and has probably contributed more meaningful strat talk/guides on CC than the rest of us combined.

+1 million