Dead Money? Is it really that important?

joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
This seems to be a topic that very few around here see the importance of. The only people that I see take this into account when acting are the 'big names' of the forum, and a few other newer people that really have built their skills before joining (storms/dbitel). I think a discussion is needed in order to make people more aware of exactly how targetted your aggression should be towards dead money.

To start things off, I'm going to point out a situation where there is a lot of dead money and let people decide what to do in our position. Whether or not we should be moving in situations like this, or not. And why.


OKERSTARS GAME #8807949061: TOURNAMENT #44300975, $3.00+$0.30 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL IX (300/600) - 2007/03/08 - 22:23:14 (ET)
Table '44300975 245' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: luckypuntch (16375 in chips)
Seat 2: LMROMERO (34785 in chips)
Seat 3: veru222 (48862 in chips)
Seat 4: joosebucklol (19060 in chips)
Seat 5: onestunna247 (21558 in chips)
Seat 6: 4boys4dad (15587 in chips)
Seat 7: kujjo999 (10620 in chips)
Seat 8: ToasFace (7650 in chips)
Seat 9: padrote (15373 in chips)
luckypuntch: posts the ante 50
LMROMERO: posts the ante 50
veru222: posts the ante 50
joosebucklol: posts the ante 50
onestunna247: posts the ante 50
4boys4dad: posts the ante 50
kujjo999: posts the ante 50
ToasFace: posts the ante 50
padrote: posts the ante 50
4boys4dad: posts small blind 300
kujjo999: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to joosebucklol [4d 8s]
ToasFace: folds
padrote: folds
luckypuntch: folds
LMROMERO: calls 600
veru222: folds
LMROMERO said, "ty"
joosebucklol: ....
 
Last edited:
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Total posts
12,422
Reads on limper? Reads on blinds?

With a limper and three others left to act I can't see how this is anything other than a fold, though. Button having us outchipped isn't exactly marvellous too.

There's a time and a place for raising any two to take dead money, but unless the blinds are overly tight and the limper habitually limp-folds I don't really think this is it.

The fact that we can raise and easily fold to a reraise here because of stack sizes here is a plus, but I really hate getting called here (especially by the button), and both button and the limper have chips to throw around.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
well sorry, i only took like 5 seconds to find a hand i raised from LP. the limper was something like 44/0/0. mayhaps i should find a better scenario, unless you beat me to it.
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Dead money in pots is a HUGGGEEEE factor in how to play, and your totally correct in saying that a lot of players dont realise the value of it, raising here against a 44/0/0 though, yuk, i find a better spot, but especially in the bubble stages of an MTT, raise-c/bet with lots of cards, lots of times is generally a good idea.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
I don't like raising in this position if he's 40/0/0...he's shown interest in seeing a flop, and will most probably call any decent raise. There's also very slim chance of getting him off of any piece of a flop that he might hit.

I much prefer raising the 20/10/x type limpers; a player who's shown to be tight aggressive in the past will be a much easier target. A limp from someone like that in MP/LP almost always means small pair or SC; had they had a hand with any type of strength, they would have raised it.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Total posts
1,597
Dead money or not, agrressive player or not, I don't think I want to tangle with the big stack with 48os. Since he likes to see lots of flops, I'm sure he has managed to get to his big stack by calling down with bottom or middle pair or call and hitting draws against the odds. Since he has such a big stack I don't see you bluffing him off the pot if he hits any part of it or any decent draw. So to me you are risking all your chips for no compelling reason. Wait until you have a decent hand (not necessarily a monster but something halfway decent) to try a play against the big stack. You also have the blinds yet to act and there is nothing to say they can't wake up with a monster.

I just don't think it's worth it here. Not saying it couldn't work or didn't work in this case, I'm just saying I think we can find a better opportunity.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Total posts
1,631
Dead money to me is hugely important in tourny play my dream table around the bubble is a limping table because there is so much money to be made by the odd raise in position to take down the limpers.

8 4 o i would make the raise but tht is because i am v aggressive but i dont have pt so wouldnt have the stats you had.

I dunno why but i never think of subjects like this as everyone else does to me this is a given tht you make plays on weak limps but maybe i just have worked out for myself what others read to learn.:confused:

i hope this what u mean by dead money or i am a n00b
 
Irexes

Irexes

Legend
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Total posts
7,016
Particular example I like is the big raise in late position or out of the blinds when faced with 3 or more limpers in tournies when picking up 4 or 5 times the blinds is a big deal. Assuming the first limper person isn't slowplaying AA-KK (increasingly common) then it is extremely unlikely they will call with others to act behind.

The likelihood of a big hand from the second player is less as they followed a limp with a limp and have already passed up a chance to raise and with each subsequent person a call becomes less likely. You can often feel the final person wanting to call with their mid-low pair or suited connector that they limped for the great set value but are not prepared to stick their whole stack or a decent chunk in on.

There is often the opportunity to make a push like this with between 8xBB and 12xbb with a really big range of hands with very low risk for great return. If you actually have something resembling a decent hand then so much the better.

This is really a kind of squeeze play but it's in the same area.
 
T

thasauce7

Guest
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Total posts
122
Excuse me but does xx/xx/xx mean flops seen/turn seen/river?????
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
^It means VP$IP/PFR%/AF = Voluntarily put money into pot/preflop raise percent/aggression factor
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

Charcoal Mellowed
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Total posts
13,414
Excuse me but does xx/xx/xx mean flops seen/turn seen/river?????

^It means VP$IP/PFR%/AF = Voluntarily put money into pot/preflop raise percent/aggression factor
Those are stats (of opponents played or even yourself) available in Poker Tracker / PAHUD which, if you don't have, you should consider investing in. Note, PT and PAHUD are two separate programs that come separately but work together.
 
Real Money Poker - Real Money Casinos
Top