Calling a tight players raise knowing im behind.

[leofric]

The problem with calling OOP is even when you do hit your hand your not in the best position to make a lot from it. If he has a hand like AK and misses the flop himself then he might fire once (or not depending how tight he is) but then check behind on the turn just when you were looking forward to CRing him!
This reduces the chances of you winning a huge pot against him and without those implied odds it makes calling less good.
Going back to the OP, the only way most of us learn this is from experience - as with a lot of our leaks it looks tempting to play this way and maybe once or twice we did it and it worked. Overall though its often best to just fold and move on or if you are going to play this way then duck out on the turn.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

Did not read the posts but this is why poker is stupid. Making a play knowing the play is a bad play is plainly idiotic. Yet morons do this all day in poker. Once in 10 hands the moron gets lucky. Unfortunately in the long term, you always run into a moron making this idiotic play.
The OP "Ok say im in the big blind and a tight player min raises and i have j9s. I say to myself ok only play two pair or better. And then i flop top pair and just check and call trying to keep the pot small while he bets every street and sure enough he flips over pocket kings and i lose a decent size pot. I have done this mistake more than a few times and i think it has something to do with my self discipline. Has anybody ever had this problem? And how did you overcome it? Anyone have any exercise that can strengthen my discipline? Or does this have nothing to do with discipline and could be a result of slightly tilting or any other problem?"

very idiotic. Someone whos good will instead of calling a play like a donk hoping for luck, they three bet from the BB. This will throw off the raiser and they will either fold, or call scared. Bet again and they fold. Once ina while they will ship but the chances of that are rare. Now your picking up chips, improving your image, and possible getting the nit to tilt. The morons who choose to make plays that they know are bad is why poker is so 100% luck based makes it a waste of time unless u like pain

Terrible. Why would you 3-bet OOP with a weak hand against a tight opponent whose range is quite strong here? Just for the sake of being aggressive? You know opponent is sitting on AK+, probably a pair. You really think you can 3-bet preflop and get him to fold with a c-bet? Quite doubtful.

Any of you advocating calling a tight player's raise with J-9s from the blind are just wrong.

There are so many reasons this is wrong, but I will only name a few.

You are OOP.

J-9s is not a good hand at all.

Just because it is cheap to call, does not mean that is all you will have to invest. Calling with trouble hands like this only opens the door to tough decisions on future streets. When it is all over, and the river is here, and you lose chips (perhaps a lot), what will you think of the call with J-9s then?

Player is tight... you know you are behind, why risk chips in this spot? Stupid.

You are OUT OF POSITION. Did I say this yet? Do you people understand position is important in poker? Really, do you understand?

Poker is starting to turn into bingo these days. You folks come up with all kinds of excuses why a play like this is OK. You can stack villain if flop hits you, blah blah blah. You will lose in this spot waaaaaaaay more than you will win.

Villains don't always stack off their entire range post flop either, so implied odds is merely guesswork.



You should be playing only premiums from the blinds in cash. That is all there is to it. Obviously dynamics can play a role in this, but it is not +EV to make calls like this in general. Have some patience, and wait for better spots.


There is no reason at all to think this is a good call with J-9s. It is just a foolish waste of money.

Edit: if you do anything at all, 3-betting and take initiative is the best way. But even then, you still have J-9

Hit the nail on the head.

It's like nobody believes in folding anymore. Let your blinds go. Don't be a sucker and try to make up a reason to put your money in the middle. That's what fish do.

I guess were folding every hand except AA or KK vs this villain then

No, but you're not playing J9 out of position against a really strong range. What about that sounds profitable to you?

 

[S3mper]

I kind of disagree with folding pre flop here it's a hand with post flop potential, your in the BB and its a min raise, Villain is giving us a shot to stack him at a cheap price (Assuming were both deep)

Just because a tight player makes a raise doesn't mean he has the nuts especially if he is raising from the BTN I'd fold hands like 2-3s here but a hand like JTs I may give a go..

It would be situation dependent OFC like how often he C bets how big his C bets are his s tack size my stack size...

Are we also folding all small to medium PP here too? We have a higher % of beating AA with J9s then a hand like pocket 7's.

If we miss we lose 1 BB if we hit and crack against a tight villain with AA were probably getting 50-100BB we lose 8 out of ten times so we lose around 8-16BB to win 50-100BB and I think we get paid off most of the time when we do hit

But IDK maybe this is a leak of mine too

^^^ None of this applies if you can't fold top pair though then I'd say fold pre

^ this is my thought on it plus just cause we call a min bet doesn't pot commit us to get stacked or lose much after the flop

 

[Beanfacekilla]

^ this is my thought on it plus just cause we call a min bet doesn't pot commit us to get stacked or lose much after the flop

Of course. Just because you call doesn't mean you will go broke.

However, it is just a bad spot, and we will be c/f the flop the majority of the time.

The times we call will be with a likely dominated TP or with straight and combo draws.


But TBH many people just C/C 3 streets when they hit the J or 9 and lose money. Poker is not about getting into stupid spots and losing. Poker is about making +EV plays time and time again, and winning more than you lose.

The people that make calls like this, and lose money time and time again are why good players make money and have a win rate. So if you want to just play junk hands OOP, please continue. I don't want people to improve in this aspect.


I have played a lot of poker through the years. Cash games are easy for tight patient players. The reason this tight ABC style works is because there are always at least a couple players willing to put their money in bad to spite the warning signs, dynamics, starting hand requirements, position, and a bunch of other factors that contribute to making +EV decisions.


I mean no disrespect. I am just stating my opinion, based on my experience.

 

[S3mper]

I don't think that many good players are playing tight then min betting KK+ You stack this player more often then not when you hit, He isn't gonna play 1 hand an hour then let go of AA.

I don't think winning players are winning because people are calling their min raise Pre flop they are winning because they are better then losing players

IMO ^^

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I don't think that many good players are playing tight then min betting KK+ You stack this player more often then not when you hit, He isn't gonna play 1 hand an hour then let go of AA.

I don't think winning players are winning because people are calling their min raise Pre flop they are winning because they are better then losing players

IMO ^^

A good player would have no problem letting go of AA.

And I never said min-raising was a good play. I said calling from the blinds with trash like J-9s is a bad play, especially against a tight player.


And you may be able to stack the player IF you hit, but much more often, you will end up C/f the flop, or paying off three streets of value when you are behind. This is what is referred to as a leak.

 

[Mr Sandbag]

My question is, with what flop do you expect to stack your opponent with J9s? You have less than a 1% chance of flopping a straight and about the same odds of flopping a flush, so you can forget about that. Two pair is the only hand where you will be realistically stacking an opponent a meaningful portion of the time. If you flop trips, good luck getting a tight player to dump his money into a paired board.

The most likely scenario is flopping a pair or draw and giving your opponent's big hand value while you chase him down.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

My question is, with what flop do you expect to stack your opponent with J9s? You have less than a 1% chance of flopping a straight and about the same odds of flopping a flush, so you can forget about that. Two pair is the only hand where you will be realistically stacking an opponent a meaningful portion of the time. If you flop trips, good luck getting a tight player to dump his money into a paired board.

The most likely scenario is flopping a pair or draw and giving your opponent's big hand value while you chase him down.

Exactly about flopping a draw.

This is why I refer to it as a trouble hand. The call preflop just can cause trouble post flop when you try to run down draws and BS and waste your money chasing (when you should be folding preflop in the first place).


And J-9s is only 18% against an over pair like KK preflop. Tournaments this may be OK, but in cash, it is just a foolish waste of chips. You can just wait for better spots.

 

[S3mper]

Pocket 7s are also only 18% against an over like KK and I never said that you said that min raisin with KK-AA is a good play what I was saying was that if a tight player who is min raising these hands may not be strong and you would have an edge against this player.

It is more of a tournament move then a cash game but I think if your good enough to lay down top pair when you truly feel you are behind it can be the right move especially if you are deep like 100-150 BB

example: flop comes J-7-2 you check player bets you can raise here and if get re raised lay it down what's he coming over the top with that you have beat.. if he calls you can check again and if he had a hand like AK villain is probably checking turn and river unless they hit especially if they are tight.. and there is a possibility that he just folds

So by doing this your not calling all 3 streets you can figure out where you are right on the flop.

And its not that I think that folding is wrong here I just think that calling isn't wrong here as well so I think both answers are right but both are wrong

 

[Mr Sandbag]

Pocket 7s are also only 18% against an over like KK and I never said that you said that min raisin with KK-AA is a good play what I was saying was that if a tight player who is min raising these hands may not be strong and you would have an edge against this player.

It is more of a tournament move then a cash game but I think if your good enough to lay down top pair when you truly feel you are behind it can be the right move especially if you are deep like 100-150 BB

example: flop comes J-7-2 you check player bets you can raise here and if get re raised lay it down what's he coming over the top with that you have beat.. if he calls you can check again and if he had a hand like AK villain is probably checking turn and river unless they hit especially if they are tight.. and there is a possibility that he just folds

So by doing this your not calling all 3 streets you can figure out where you are right on the flop.

And its not that I think that folding is wrong here I just think that calling isn't wrong here as well so I think both answers are right but both are wrong

The difference between pocket 7s and J9s is that when 77 hits, it's very well concealed. J9s will hardly ever be a "hidden" hand when it hits.

The problem I have with your check raise idea is that you're doing this against a tight player whose range can mostly contain high pairs, so you may get reraised more often than you think. You'll just be throwing money away trying to take down a pot with a mediocre hand instead of saving the money for a better hand or better spot.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

I understand what you are saying S3mper.

However, in a cash game, there is no reason to get involved in a spot like this. The blinds always stay the same, and we can just be patient and wait for better spots.

Like the same hand, but on the button. Then we have more of an advantage.

But if we play trash, and play it out of position, we are just wasting money. Cash games afford us the luxury of picking good spots to enter pots. This just is not one of them.

 

[S3mper]

You guys are probably right, Funny thing is I got j9 in the BB last night and it got min raised and I ended up stacking the player lol

The situation was 100% different then the OP's though because this villain was a over aggressive fish, he ended up calling off his stack with Q2 a pair of deuces on the turn.

 

[Izandurrrrrr]

If you know your behind and only playing for a huge flop you must fold the top pair, as you go against your plan if not, also top pair is not what your looking for in this situation.